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Old 04-08-2019, 05:27 PM   #1
Lord Twig
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Default Low DX dodge and defend

If your figure has the lowest AdjDX, if there any point to Dodging or defending? Does it not carry over to the next round?
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Old 04-08-2019, 06:48 PM   #2
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

The idea seems to be that Defend and Dodge operate outwith the normal adjDX paradigm. The rules aren't entirely clear on the matter and you could imply that these options should occur in DX order, which as you say, would make them useless to low DX characters. However, the example of play in Melee (pages 23-24) shows Defence and Dodge operating for one figure despite their DX being lower than the attacking opponent.

We always took this to be the intention and played it that way.
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Old 04-08-2019, 08:26 PM   #3
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

Dodging and defending are just as useful options to a low DX figure as to a higher ones. A figure defending or dodging gets the benefit of that action against all appropriate attacks that round in exchange for not taking some other action (like attacking). Defending and dodging are sometimes the best option for a low DX figure, like when, for example, they are trying to avoid being injured while giving a colleague an opportunity to outflank the opponent.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:00 PM   #4
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

If somebody attacks you then declare that you are defending or dodging at that moment.

If nobody attacks you then stay silent until your DX is reached at the end and wack somebody.

Schrödinger's Hobgoblin: Whichever one of the three you attack will choose the defend option.
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Last edited by hcobb; 04-08-2019 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:29 PM   #5
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

It is an omission that this seems not to have ever been spelled out, but the folks posting above are correct - you are free to declare a dodge or defend out of your place in the adjDX order.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:54 AM   #6
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

The rules seem clear enough to me. Defend (and Dodge) are options. You can always change your mind about your option as long as you haven't violated the conditions for the one you want (usually movement; in this case, having attacked).

There's not a requirement that it be "your turn" when you change your mind about your option; the entire "round" of rolling for initiative, everyone moving, everyone taking an option, is called a "turn" (not round), and you can change your mind "during a turn". (There's not formal jargon for "just one player's segment of an entire turn", but "move" and "option" come close.) Effects of options don't persist past the end of a turn -- which is okay, because you can always choose Defend early in the next turn if need be.

Some players might not like that rule, of course, but it doesn't seem ambiguous to me. You could invent a rule that Defend persists until your next option, but you only need that to patch the problem created if you assume you can't choose Defend before your adjDX slot comes up. "Fixing" the rule seems to make it more complicated only to get the same net effect.

Rather than being useless for low adjDX, low adjDX characters actually have a bit of an edge, as they can be more reactive in their use of Defend. A high adjDX character will get their option early, and so have to decide to attack or not before the other characters. If they attack, they've lost their ability to Defend, but they don't know how many other characters might attack them. If they're worried about that rank of skeletons ganging up on them, the fast character has to preemptively Defend, giving up their attack just in case they get attacked. The low adjDX character can just stand pat, waiting as all other characters make their choices, choosing to switch to Defend if it becomes necessary, and still getting that last attack if no one happens to attack him. Acting first has many benefits, but that doesn't mean it must be an unalloyed advantage, better in all respects than acting later.
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:16 AM   #7
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

That jives with my understanding as well, though I can see why people new to the system might get confused. An intentionally called out example would have cleared it up.
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:52 AM   #8
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
... You could invent a rule that Defend persists until your next option, but you only need that to patch the problem created if you assume you can't choose Defend before your adjDX slot comes up. "Fixing" the rule seems to make it more complicated only to get the same net effect. ....
Yes, that would be a major complication and change to the way a turn works, which may be confusingly explained, but is pretty simple and works well once understood.

If you had Defend & Dodge persist into the next turn like that, it would have a very strange effect because there would be an entire movement phase in the middle of it, during which the entire situation could change, and the player could move their full MA but still be Defending or Dodging until their next adjDX came up, etc. It would be pretty weird in some situations, and worse for the slow figure.


Once again, the Options list is supposed to be an intro to help new players, but tends to confuse many. The "real" sequence of play, it seems to me, is much more like:

Initiative

Movement (remember how far you moved, but don't bother declaring an Option)

Action (you can Defend & Dodge if attacked before your adjDX. When your turn to ACT comes, you can attack if you haven't taken an action yet.)
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:05 AM   #9
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The "real" sequence of play
That's the way I think of it as well. Initiative, Movement Phase, Options Phase, with no necessity to choose an option until your segment of the Options Phase. (Though you might need to choose earlier in some cases, and it's always wise to consider the movement restrictions on options before you move, as that will constrain your choice later.)

Interestingly, my non-TFT-playing GURPS group wound up playing much the same way. GURPS starts with "choose a maneuver", which constrains both movement and action -- but with no real reason to change your mind partway through, as usually your move and attack come together in your turn -- no global turn or everybody-moves, then everybody-attacks. But we've also played with phased movement, and just allowed attacks as long as you hadn't yet moved more than a step, or "Move and Attack" as long as you hadn't exceeded half move, etc.
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Old 04-09-2019, 11:12 AM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Low DX dodge and defend

Yeah, as I've mentioned many times in various threads, it used to be very clear thanks to the Changing Options section in old Wizard and Advanced Melee, which (apparently due to feeling redundant or too technical?) was left out of the new rules.
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