Very Fit and Extra Effort in combat

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

as Kromm point out Standard GURPS rounding rules still apply. but lot of small quick Fatigue spending is tires even very fit people more quickly than long stead fatigue burn. But very fit still lets to recover quicker from extra effort.

not Extra effort is pushing yourself beyond your conditioned optimal performance this is tiring regardless of how fit you are, just the more fit recover quicker.

Not an argument I buy, for the reasons elucidated above. Fit is 5 points and gives you +1 to HT rolls and x2 fatigue recovery. The extra 10 points Very Fit costs give you another +1 to HT rolls (2 or 3 cp?) and halves fatigue expenditure. Those large fatigue burns applied all at once are relatively few and far between in GURPS to the best of my recollection (again, my Campaigns book isn't in front of me so I have to go with GURPS Lite): most are applied 1 fp at a time - unless you're an encumbered combatant. So it would seem the advantage is broken.

A Very Fit character and one without the advantage are holding their breath: they lose 1 FP a second. Both run out of breath at the same time. Odd. I thought this advantage reflected "better cardiovascular health".

A Very Fit character and one without the advantage OverExert themselves pushing a heavy load. They both lose 1 fp a second and tire at the same rate. Also odd.

Sprinting for 15 seconds, the Very Fit character loses 1 fp on a failed HT roll just like anyone else. At least he has that bonus to the HT roll to see if he loses it, but still: odd.

Hiking, with no encumbrance, the Very Fit character tires just as fast as the character without: 1 fp/hour. Curiouser and curiouser.

The only advantage (besides that +1 to HT rolls) I can see that this extra 10 points get you over Fit are in the Heat rules - where you're looking at 1d fp or so a pop, and if you're Encumbered (although oddly, not if you're using the Overexertion rules).

If we're not a sherpa in the desert, aren't we just better off buying another point of HT instead? Shouldn't this advantage be ruled out for Martial Artist characters as a waste of points?

[roguebfl]

large Fatgue burn few and far between huh?

so Combat is few and far between [Fatigue is assest at the end of combat] in your campaings huh?

[William]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Hiking, with no encumbrance, the Very Fit character tires just as fast as the character without: 1 fp/hour.

While I can't speak to much else of your list in personal experience, this I can. I was a horribly out-of-shape youngster, but I could make a day's hike with my Boy Scout troop as well as the rest of them -- if I was the one setting the pace! Hiking without encumbrance is easy; for a fat kid, it's keeping up with the higher Move (there is an optional "realism" rule that reduces the Move of a Fat character) of his better-toned peers that's tricky.

Furthermore, your Very Fit hiker can make extra effort and go further, losing less fatigue at the end of the day. When he's taking it easy, of course his edge in fitness isn't going to show.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Not an argument I buy, for the reasons elucidated above. Fit is 5 points and gives you +1 to HT rolls and x2 fatigue recovery. The extra 10 points Very Fit costs give you another +1 to HT rolls (2 or 3 cp?) and halves fatigue expenditure. Those large fatigue burns applied all at once are relatively few and far between in GURPS to the best of my recollection (again, my Campaigns book isn't in front of me so I have to go with GURPS Lite): most are applied 1 fp at a time - unless you're an encumbered combatant. So it would seem the advantage is broken.

A Very Fit character and one without the advantage are holding their breath: they lose 1 FP a second. Both run out of breath at the same time. Odd. I thought this advantage reflected "better cardiovascular health".

A Very Fit character and one without the advantage OverExert themselves pushing a heavy load. They both lose 1 fp a second and tire at the same rate. Also odd.

Sprinting for 15 seconds, the Very Fit character loses 1 fp on a failed HT roll just like anyone else. At least he has that bonus to the HT roll to see if he loses it, but still: odd.

Hiking, with no encumbrance, the Very Fit character tires just as fast as the character without: 1 fp/hour. Curiouser and curiouser.

The only advantage (besides that +1 to HT rolls) I can see that this extra 10 points get you over Fit are in the Heat rules - where you're looking at 1d fp or so a pop, and if you're Encumbered (although oddly, not if you're using the Overexertion rules).

If we're not a sherpa in the desert, aren't we just better off buying another point of HT instead? Shouldn't this advantage be ruled out for Martial Artist characters as a waste of points?

The wording of Very Fit is, I believe, is something llike "uses fatigue at half rate". For any of those that are FP over time, presumably doubling the period is what's intended. So, Hiking is 1 FP/ 2 hours, et cetera.

That seems to me to be the most reasonable interpretation, anyway.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Bookman

The wording of Very Fit is, I believe, is something llike "uses fatigue at half rate". For any of those that are FP over time, presumably doubling the period is what's intended. So, Hiking is 1 FP/ 2 hours, et cetera.

That seems to me to be the most reasonable interpretation, anyway.

Precisely what I've ben getting at. I wonder why this is so hard to grok.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

large Fatgue burn few and far between huh?

so Combat is few and far between [Fatigue is assest at the end of combat] in your campaings huh?

Your gratuitous and clumsy sarcasm aside: in my campaign, combat with more than No Encumbrance is rare (modern/occult wainscot - noone's carrying much more than their clothes and the odd concealed gun or swordcane). It shouldn't take too much imagination for you to think up a few more campaign types where that would also be the case...

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

large Fatgue burn few and far between huh?

so Combat is few and far between [Fatigue is assest at the end of combat] in your campaings huh?

Unless one is running an action-movie-style campaign, combat is much rarer than other ways of getting oneself tired. And I totally agree with Ciaran - my characters always stay at No Encumbrance (I like to take ST8...), so does that mean I can't benefit from extra endurance?

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Precisely what I've ben getting at. I wonder why this is so hard to grok.

That's not how I interpreted your comments. I agree that halving FP expenses over time makes sense; I don't agree that extra effort should be reduced from 1FP to 1/2 or 0.

I was actually disagreeing with your conclusion that the fact that we don't halve extra effort implies that we don't halve the other rates -- even though they're expressed as 1 FP over some period. Very Fit *does* benefit those, and as I interpret both the rules and Kromm's comment, that's the intent.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Bookman

That's not how I interpreted your comments. I agree that halving FP expenses over time makes sense; I don't agree that extra effort should be reduced from 1FP to 1/2 or 0.

I was actually disagreeing with your conclusion that the fact that we don't halve extra effort implies that we don't halve the other rates -- even though they're expressed as 1 FP over some period. Very Fit *does* benefit those, and as I interpret both the rules and Kromm's comment, that's the intent.

I see. Well I'm definitely with you on your interpretation on the other rates. Although Kromm's reply seemed to me to imply that if it costs 1 fp - whatever it is - halving it means you round up and you can chalk that up to a casualty of the granularity margin: in other words, you're SOL. Perhaps I was wrong in that interpretation.

Re: Extra Effort in combat, I've never really understood why some people see it as cinematic. You can watch tape of people in fights and see the moments when they "turn it up" out of desperation, killing instinct, genuine fear for their lives, or what-have-you. The last-minute flurry just before the bell, the desperate attempts to ward off harm, they're nothing that anyone needs to put a "Manga" tag on. I've seen them, live, I know that stuff is real. I also know from experience (and other people's may tell them different), that a well conditioned person's main advantage over a less-conditioned one is his or her ability to sustain that kind of output for longer without "gasing out".

Now applying Very Fit to Extra Effort clearly wasn't in the design intent, according to Kromm. But for those of us who think it might be cool to have that option available in their campaigns, the question becomes "what should the cost be?".

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

as Kromm point out Standard GURPS rounding rules still apply. but lot of small quick Fatigue spending is tires even very fit people more quickly than long stead fatigue burn. But very fit still lets to recover quicker from extra effort.

not Extra effort is pushing yourself beyond your conditioned optimal performance this is tiring regardless of how fit you are, just the more fit recover quicker.

I train in a sport consisting of short, very intense bursts of activity. You're wrong. The very fit people still do better.