We Need To Talk About Magic Resistance

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Kromm

What causes ambiguity here are (1) porting old GURPS rulings into the DFRPG, and (2) not closely reading the actual words.

Hm, does that mean in DF missile spells *are* magical and can't cross NMZs, can be dispelled, won't pass through a Pentagram and so forth? Sure that's just as reasonable as the reverse, if not more, but isn't something I would have expected.

[scc]

First up, sorry about the thing with Missile Spells and Eye's of Death, I must have gotten confusedwhen writing my post.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The DFRPG – which is the only place where the manaplasm exists – isn't subject to ancient Roleplayer rulings. It uses its own definition of Immunity: "Monster cannot be affected at all by the indicated threat regardless of cause or means of delivery." This isn't considered part of the Resistant spectrum of traits in that game, but a special monster ability. In that specific context, it would be pretty strange for Missile spells to somehow not count as "magic."

My interruption is that for Fireball or Lightning you create a ball of fire or lightning in your hand, contained, sustained and ultimately guided to your chosen target, but the fire that burns you or the lightning that shocks you is real, even if it was created by magic.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Because it isn't a 'hologram' it's an adjusted perception of reality. By disbelieving you no longer allow the mage to adjust your perception of reality.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Well no. It isn't. Illusion and Creation is it's own college. Simple Illusion is a base spell with no prerequisites except slightly above average intelligence. What that means is Simple Illusion isn't made out of anything except magic and imagination. If someone else refuses to imagine it, it doesn't have enough substance to stay.

Where are you two getting this idea? (I'm assuming that you two have a very similar take on this spell) The area that the spell, and it is an Area spell, is based upon the size of the illusion (for say a house) or the area the illusion can move around in (for a dancing figure) ["Creates a purely visual image that
can be seen by anyone in view of the area it occupies."], the rules for Independence and Control Illusion reinforce this. If someone is 100 miles away and has a clear view, they see your illusion but you don't have to pay extra for that.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Genre convention that predates GURPS Magic. It's not really clear what illusions are supposed to be in GURPS Magic, a hologram would be a Light and Darkness spell.

Maybe it should have been done away with when Magic was last updated, because I'm pretty sure this is the first

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It's a Necromancy spell because it's once again a base spell and it's only prerequisite for death related spells.

It's Necromancy because it's Necromancy in other words, your not providing any reason for it to be Necromancy and prerequisites across College lines aren't unheard of, in fact Death Vision is a prerequisite for three spells, one of them Mind Control, and the Min Control Spell is the one that makes the most sense.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And it doesn't have a resistance roll because it isn't an attack. People may be mentally stunned by it but that's because the information it gives them is shocking. What it should do is cause a Fright Check, but it predates Fright Checks. In my update notes I fix that. However, one of the nice things about Magic Resistance is that it gives you a resistance roll against spells that have no resistance roll. As well as being one of the worst things.

But they're the only one's that see it, and possibly they feel it as well, that's clearly in the realm of Mind Control. Also there's Mental Stun, for which you must know at least one other spell and affords the target a Resistance roll.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No idea what that is.

It's from DFRPG Monsters 2, a slime that's (supposed) to be totally immune to magic and likes to eat magic.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by scc

Fi



Where are you two getting this idea? (I'm assuming that you two have a very similar take on this spell) The area that the spell, and it is an Area spell, is based upon the size of the illusion (for say a house) or the area the illusion can move around in (for a dancing figure) ["Creates a purely visual image that
can be seen by anyone in view of the area it occupies."], the rules for Independence and Control Illusion reinforce this. If someone is 100 miles away and has a clear view, they see your illusion but you don't have to pay extra for that.

I'm getting it from the only prerequisite for Simple Illusion being IQ 11. By the design philosophy of GURPS Magic visual illusions created through physically altering light to deceive the eye would have "Control Light" as a prereq. It isn't light. And it isn't mind control either. It's just dumping magic into a mental image until it becomes somewhat "real".

[Plane]

Originally Posted by scc

While Magic Resistance isn't mentioned I'm fairly sure that it does actually give someone a bonus to disbelieve the illusion.

That seems a little unclear.... *reads B67*

Firstly it's subtracted from the mage's skill when casting a spell ON YOU but since illusions are just placed on an area (not cast on a person) I don't think that would apply

Secondly, it's added to "roll to resist any spell that offers a resistance roll" but Simple Illusion (M95) is not described as "Resisted" so I don't think that would apply either.

Simple Illusion is dispelled by "any attack" and also by a successful will roll made by anyone who takes a concentrate maneuver, so it seems more like that's an attack on the spell rather than resisting it.

Perhaps it might be okay to allow Magic Resistance to add to your Will roll when making a Fright Check to resist "Scary Illusions" though? Even then I'm not clear (are you resisting the spell, or your own mind's reaction to the image it creates?) but it seems like a better argument exists here than for dispelling the illusion using a Concentrate.

Originally Posted by scc

Next is Death Vision, which shows someone a vision of their possible demise, this should clearly be Resisted as it's mind effecting, yet it isn't.

Yipes... automatic mental stun... that's pretty nice :) Do you think perhaps Magic Resistance at least ought to add to the IQ roll to break out of the mental stun the spell creates?

Originally Posted by scc

Also why is this a Necromancy spell and not a Knowledge spell? The only way this makes sense is if death is exclusively the realm of Necromancy, which would mean that you can't use Knowledge spells to divine any information about someone's death.

Probably because it's not necessarily knowledge at all... it can be a "false vision from another possible future" after all.

Originally Posted by scc

Third is the Eye of Death, which has Magic Resistance 10 likes to kill mages and it's write-up says that Missile Spells don't work against it, which is rather strange as Missile Spells don't have resistance rolls.

I don't see this mentioned on pg 14 of "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1" (pub 2011) or pg 26-27 of Dungeon Fantasy Monsters (pub 2017).

"the eye’s Magic Resistance 10 means that spells are even less likely to work than missile weapons" is referring to spells you resist. When you throw a Missile Spell it's basically a Missile Weapon.

Originally Posted by scc

unless I'm mistaken if you hit this thing you automatically hit it in the eye, which both blinds it and gives you a x4 damage multiplier.

You don't get the damage multiplier because they have "No Brain", which is the basis for that multiplier.

Instead you'd just do standard damage, but you'd still blind them if you did 1 damage, since that exceeds 1/10 HP.

A 0-damage hit (as a crushing attack might roll, for example) wouldn't blind it though. GURPS Martial Arts has a rule for non-crippling eye pokes causing some penalties though.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not sure why the eye of death doesn't just have No Head.

I'm still trying to get my head around what benefit those extra 2 points on top of No Brain represent.

If anything it sounds like having a brainless head is better: unaware enemies will waste their time making -5 and -8 hits with no benefit to their damage, and you don't look weird.

The only upside I can see to No Head is not needing to buy helmets to get DR (besides, the skull gets 2 DR for free! That remains, even though there's no brain underneath)

B420/B552 already make it clear that No Brain is enough to avoid knockdown on non-major wounds to skull/face/eye.

I think it might be better to have "No Head" worth 2 points and NOT include "No Brain", to allow the option of constructing headless creatures whose brains exist somewhere inside their torso, like https://cryptidz.fandom.com/wiki/Blemmyes who are basically "my chest is my face" so it would be -0 instead of -5 for face hits, but you wouldn't need to buy helmets, just leather jackets.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Because it isn't a 'hologram' it's an adjusted perception of reality. By disbelieving you no longer allow the mage to adjust your perception of reality.

Isn't it more than that? Sounds like you don't just stop them adjusting your perception, but others as well, since you'd dispel the illusion not just for yourself, but also for others, as if you punched it.

[scc]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I'm getting it from the only prerequisite for Simple Illusion being IQ 11. By the design philosophy of GURPS Magic visual illusions created through physically altering light to deceive the eye would have "Control Light" as a prereq. It isn't light. And it isn't mind control either. It's just dumping magic into a mental image until it becomes somewhat "real".

A spells own rules trump prerequisites all the time as prerequisites are merely fluff. Additionally Technomancer makes it explicit that illusions can be caught on film, meaning they MUST be holograms.

Also the idea that Magic had a rigorous editing process is enough to bring a smile to my lips.

Originally Posted by Plane

That seems a little unclear.... *reads B67*

Firstly it's subtracted from the mage's skill when casting a spell ON YOU but since illusions are just placed on an area (not cast on a person) I don't think that would apply

Secondly, it's added to "roll to resist any spell that offers a resistance roll" but Simple Illusion (M95) is not described as "Resisted" so I don't think that would apply either.

Simple Illusion is dispelled by "any attack" and also by a successful will roll made by anyone who takes a concentrate maneuver, so it seems more like that's an attack on the spell rather than resisting it.

Perhaps it might be okay to allow Magic Resistance to add to your Will roll when making a Fright Check to resist "Scary Illusions" though? Even then I'm not clear (are you resisting the spell, or your own mind's reaction to the image it creates?) but it seems like a better argument exists here than for dispelling the illusion using a Concentrate.

Sorry, that was my extrapolation, also I'm arguing against allowing that roll at all because it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Plane

Yipes... automatic mental stun... that's pretty nice :) Do you think perhaps Magic Resistance at least ought to add to the IQ roll to break out of the mental stun the spell creates?

No, the mental stun is caused by what you've seen, the spell is instantaneous

Originally Posted by Plane

Probably because it's not necessarily knowledge at all... it can be a "false vision from another possible future" after all.

It's still a vision of the future but, and it's a possible one, that falls under Knoweldge

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by scc

A spells own rules trump prerequisites all the time as prerequisites are merely fluff. Additionally Technomancer makes it explicit that illusions can be caught on film, meaning they MUST be holograms.

I'm not saying that it can't be seen with the eyes. I'm saying it isn't made by manipulating light but rather by making imaginary things more real. Which is why it's the college of illusion and creation.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm still trying to get my head around what benefit those extra 2 points on top of No Brain represent.

(a) you no longer have a face hit location.
(b) you don't need to wear head armor.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by scc

First up is Simple Illusion, which can be dispelled by someone disbelieving it, which is rather weird as it's basically a Hologram, why would disbelief dispel it?

It's kind of a classic fairy tale trope, that once someone stops believing in an illusion/glamour, it vanishes. Most such stories involve a single person, but when it got ported over to RPG's with adventuring parties, some (like GURPS) decided to have one person disbelieving it destroy it, rather than making it happen on an individual basis (others have it only cease for those who successfully disbelieve, but a disbeliever telling someone it's not real gives a bonus to whatever check is involved).

Originally Posted by scc

Next is Death Vision, which shows someone a vision of their possible demise, this should clearly be Resisted as it's mind effecting, yet it isn't. Also why is this a Necromancy spell and not a Knowledge spell? The only way this makes sense is if death is exclusively the realm of Necromancy, which would mean that you can't use Knowledge spells to divine any information about someone's death.

As described, Death Vision could easily fit into quite a few colleges - Illusion/Creation, Knowledge, Mind Control, Necromancy, etc. The authors obviously decided to have it fit into Necromancy as a) it deals with death, which is kind of Necromancy's whole thing and b) it seems an appropriately in-genre thing for necromancers to do. If it really bugs you, either change it or justify it - perhaps it works by creating a spike of "death energy" like that the body would produce upon death, tricking the person's soul into thinking the person just died and causing the momentary effect as the soul tries to leave (but can't because, you know, still alive and all that).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by scc

A spells own rules trump prerequisites all the time as prerequisites are merely fluff. Additionally Technomancer makes it explicit that illusions can be caught on film, meaning they MUST be holograms.

Actually, they appear to be a special class of created objects; while the reason for simple illusion being dispelled by touch is unclear, a complex illusion is dispelled by damage (and a perfect is temporarily disrupted), meaning it must have enough substance to be affected by damage.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Plane

Instead you'd just do standard damage, but you'd still blind them if you did 1 damage, since that exceeds 1/10 HP.

A 0-damage hit (as a crushing attack might roll, for example) wouldn't blind it though. GURPS Martial Arts has a rule for non-crippling eye pokes causing some penalties though.

Huh. I've run a bunch of battles with Eyes of Death and have never had them be blinded by physical injuries. Vibration Sense would, of course, mitigate it to some degree. When combined with See Invisible my sense was that they can just detect most things in range. This changes their danger level quite a bit!