Judaism background: Israelites and Noachites

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

"On Covenant, is circumcision a privilege allowed only to Israelites? "
I don't think so, and it's hard to see how such a prohibition could be enforced without causing much unrest.

What? Are they going to organize an inquisition to hunt down every Muslim in the world not to mention every occidental parent who was told it would keep it from itching?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Note: this is a background enquiry about historical Judaism of the 1st Century CE, and thread for speculating about a fictional SF setting of the distant future in which no [further] revelation has occurred. It's about a fictional setting for roleplaying games, not the real world.


I have read (in Johnston's History of Christianity, for example) that in the middle of the first century after Christ there were a lot of people in the Roman Empire who though not of the Jewish people yet believed in God and feared Him (in the sense in which that is appropriate). These people mostly did not convert to Judaism in the sense of becoming Jews; they were recognised as non-Jewish God-fearers. Not being of the people of Israel, they were not considered to be party to God's covenant with Moses, and were not subject to the full detail of the Mosaic Law. There were, however, subject to God's much less stringent covenant with Noah, and were referred to by Jews as "Noachites". The Noachites were not required to take part in Temple sacrifice, and I think were even forbidden from sacrificing at the Temple. The Israelites considered them inferior in the sight of God, which rankled, and when Christianity became available they converted rapidly to the more welcoming faith.

So I'm thinking about a world in a fictitious future in which Cartesian dualism has been fatally undermined by advances in neurology, and in which therefore a sophisticated thinker might believe in the Creator but cannot believe that a person is an immaterial spirit that directs the actions of a mere shell of a material body. Certain religious groups founded refuges among the stars where they could raise their children not to think about those awkward things nor be subject to other disturbing influences of an increasingly secular, materialistic, and skeptical world culture. Unfortunately for everyone concerned, religious groups on Earth adequate and motivated to defend the isolation of these emigrations died out while the colonisation rights were still valuable, and the religious pioneers of these worlds were joined and sometimes swamped by later migrants from Earth who were not motivated by the same religious isolationist impulse.

In this setting Covenant is a world that (after a joint effort in terraforming) was originally settled by a number of slightly different Jewish religious-separatist and religious-utopist group, a secular-Jewish group, and an Israeli national-separatist group. As religious belief and custom on Earth developed through the 2300s various other people took passage there either believing that their religious adoptions and innovations were natural fellows of Judaism, or believing that religious practice was a quaint old folkway and not really a big deal.

Might we then suppose that as at about 2885, after nearly five centuries of development in isolation, Covenant had re-developed the distinction between Israelites and Noachites, holding Noachites to the Covenant with Noah and civil law only, while holding Israelites to stricter laws but allowing them corresponding privileges? Note well that I am not supposing any wide return to a fundamentalist enforcement of all the bits I hate in Leviticus. The last three thousand years' rabbinical interpretation and qualification is still in force, and there have been eight centuries' more.

• On Covenant, can a Noachite be a rabbi?
  
• On Covenant, if a Levite man married a Noachite woman, could their sons be priests even though they weren't Israelites?
  
• On Covenant, can an Israelite choose to be a Noachite instead, or be reduced to the status of Noachite as an excommunication? Or is the covenant with God non-optional both ways?
  
• On Covenant, can a Noachite convert to Israeliticity?
  
• On Covenant, is circumcision a privilege allowed only to Israelites?

In one sense to be a Noachite all I have to be is human(descended from Noah).

In another sense all I have to do is

Not Curse God(well sometimes I've wanted to but in fact I haven't)

Not Worship Idols(never wanted to)

Not Steal(probably stole something sometime in my life if only by slacking off in a work situation but I really don't do that much)

Not Murder(not aware of murdering anyone though I suppose I could have done so without remembering)

Not commit fornication(yeah, good luck with that one)

Not eat flesh off a living animal(can we all say "ick" together)

Keep just laws(well The Republic has more just laws then, say Somalia, even if it can be aggravating at times)

So in one sense I am in fact a Noahchite even though I never followed it as a religion.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I'd say its more likely to remain common among WASP Noachites, esp since some of the conservative WASPs

WASPs are not likely to remain recognisable and distinct 300 years from now, and their flirtation with circumcision is already on the wane. I posit two hundred years of cultural and racial mingling on Earth before emigration starts in earnest, and several hundred alternative destinations to the jewish colony of Covenant.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

What? Are they going to organize an inquisition to hunt down every Muslim in the world not to mention every occidental parent who was told it would keep it from itching?

I very, very much doubt that any Muslims whatsoever are going to be emigrating to Covenant, a Jewish colony. They will go to Hijra and Fureidis and almost anywhere else.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

So in one sense I am in fact a Noahchite even though I never followed it as a religion.

Yes but you're in the real world, not in my fictitious setting. You are now, not 870 years in the future. And you aren't living on Covenant.


Please, please do not derail this into a discussion of forum members' actual religious beliefs.

[gjc8]

There's a significant (and often rather patriotic) Druze community in Israel, and in fact are in something like the Noachite state already, including a greater engagement in the society than other Arabs and an endorsement of the Noahide laws for non-Jews by their spiritual leader.

It would not surprise me if some chose to go to Covenant, particularly among the Israeli nationalist separatists. A dedicated Druze religious colony seems unlikely, given their low global numbers (~1 million worldwide, 10% of that in Israel).

And, notably, they practice circumcision.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

WASPs are not likely to remain recognisable and distinct 300 years from now, and their flirtation with circumcision is already on the wane. I posit two hundred years of cultural and racial mingling on Earth before emigration starts in earnest, and several hundred alternative destinations to the jewish colony of Covenant.

Okay then, the non-Jewish descendants of the Pro-Israeli WASPs are the ones likely to retain circumcision for reasons of superficial assimilation and as a symbol of life-long dedication to preparing the way for the Second Coming. They will be the gentiles closest to hand when the colonial effort is made, and their complementary beliefs will cooperate better than either alone if for no other reason than observant colonists having neighbors and business partners who can cover for another on their respective Sabbaths and high holy days like Christmas and Rosh Hashana.

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Geneering eliminates the useless disease trap that is the foreskin. No circumcision required.

Speaking of which, yeah there are occasionally circumstances where circumcision is medically indicated, though I suppose advanced medical technology might change that.

And even men who congenitally lack foreskins.

[combatmedic]

Are there any Seventh Day Adventists or other Judaizing Christian sects on the planet, or have those gone elsewhere/died out?

[Agemegos]

Neither do I wish this thread derailed into an argument about the advisability of circumcision and the necessity of doing it to unconsenting infants.