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Old 11-30-2020, 11:27 PM   #11
cptbutton
 
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

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Originally Posted by edk926 View Post
Swimming isn't really an everyman skill. Many people have no real places to go and swim particularly big city dwellers. Driving will more depend on location. It's extremely common in the US, but only a small portion of people can drive in China for example. Computer Operation is more likely among someone younger than someone older. I've at least played around on a computer most of my life, but my dad can barely turn on a computer.
In the US, swimming is often taught in high school in districts that can afford swimming pools.
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Old 11-30-2020, 11:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

There are a couple of Krommposts on this topic, one for adventurers (with skills like Swimming and Guns/TL) and another for general cultural knowledge (with skills like Housekeeping and Current Affairs).

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Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
In the US, swimming is often taught in high school in districts that can afford swimming pools.
Yes, and that is culturally specific. Just like everyone in the Netherlands has to learn to get out of an overturned car in a canal while seatbelted to get their driver's license, but not everybody in Canada. Or Driving being more common for someone who grew up in Nebraska than somebody who grew up in New York City.
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Old 12-01-2020, 01:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

I don't think TL8 culture is generic enough for this. You could potentially come up with a list based on "TL8 Rural America" or "TL8 English Town" but they would be different lists (with some overlap) - and familiarities may differ too (for Driving, for example, I believe automatic transmission is much more common in America than the UK).

Personally I'd interpret most people as using common skills on default though I realise opinions differ; as per Social Engineering: Back to School most time at school is spent buying off innumerate, illiterate, and developing the general knowledge component of IQ (and thus increasing the defaults for skills that default from IQ). Hence you'd finish school with maybe a few points representing interests (e.g. Games, Sports, Musical Instrument, etc). Most time spent after leaving school would be developing skills needed for your job, and more hobbies. Your interests could include swimming, or computer gaming (giving skill in Swimming or Computer Operation respectively), but somebody else might have Dancing (familiarity Ballet) or Hobby Skill (Role-Playing Games) instead - hobbies vary widely.

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Old 12-01-2020, 01:52 AM   #14
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

That is probably only the case for age 0 through 5. In general, I feel that children ages 5 through 10 will have the equivalent of four hours a day of self-study in the form of play, where they learn Area Knowledge, Current Affairs, Games, and Hobby Skills. At ages 10 through 15, they will also have the equivalent of four hours a day of teaching, either being taught by their teacher, their parents, or any other sympathetic adult who will share their knowledge.

When you add it up, someone age 15 should have 35 CP in Area Knowledge, Current Affairs, Games, and Hobby Skills and 35 CP in other skills. Since the vast majority children will only learn something to 1 CP, they will have a lot of skills that really do not matter for adventuring. I mean, what does it really matter if a child has learn how to play two dozen games at IQ? Even the stuff that they were taught by adults will not likely matter for adventuring, as a lot of it will likely be different specialties of Geography (Regional) and History.
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

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Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
In the US, swimming is often taught in high school in districts that can afford swimming pools.
While technically true, the amount of teaching was actually pretty small (I think you were passed if you could manage a survival float) and, well, it was PE. Learning was optional.

I probably do have (or at least had) points in swimming -- I was on an amateur competitive swim team (so did some racing, though even JV was better than us) and also took lifeguarding in high school -- but my swimming as part of PE was probably under 50 hours total.
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Old 12-01-2020, 02:57 AM   #16
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
That is probably only the case for age 0 through 5.

<snip>

When you add it up, someone age 15 should have 35 CP in Area Knowledge, Current Affairs, Games, and Hobby Skills and 35 CP in other skills.
This is contradicted by

Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School
Gaining the part of raising IQ that’s attributable to schooling, and buying off the disadvantageous traits above, account for most study time from age 5 to 20.
To me that implies that a 20 year old might have a handful of points. I think a five year old might just have bought off "Cannot Speak", "Low Empathy", and other disadvantages you might give a toddler! Obviously it's your game, it's up to you how you judge it, but you're going to have very high point totals compared to "average" people (which B487 says is 25-50 points) if every 15 year old has 70 CP in skills, let alone statistics and advantages! PCs can be exceptional here, of course.

Edit: GURPS Psis p19 gives a "Normal Jane or Joe" 15 points in skills, that's my go-to template for an average person if you delete the psi-related traits.

Edit2: GURPS Fantasy: Portal Realms p19 looks like it gives a child around 12 years old just three points in skills.

Last edited by Crystalline_Entity; 12-01-2020 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 12-01-2020, 07:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

My high school required swimming to pass P.E. and P.E. to graduate at all. I passed and graduated even though I cannot swim at all. My teacher was kind enough to let my doggy paddle/flopping around count due to my water phobia. Either kindness or laziness, I don't care. Ha.

I also must say that I have never had anything that could remotely pass as Area Knowledge for anywhere I have lived as a kid or as an adult. I now know the most which is no more than 5 miles in one direction from where I live due to regular walks. It hasn't caused any problems at all.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

For most people, Children (GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School, p. 11) is entirely accurate: Life prior to apprenticeship, boot camp, college, trade school, university, or whatever – and the career that starts with or shortly after that training period – gives 0 points in skills. Initial schooling raises DX and IQ to adult levels; buys off Innumerate and Social Stigma (Uneducated), the latter of which masquerades as Social Stigma (Minor); and teaches the many things that go into acquiring the free Cultural Familiarity, native Language, and comprehension of the surrounding TL that everybody gets for free.

My father was a career school teacher, a well-liked and -regarded one, who won awards for his work and developed regional curricula. The above – not Geography, History, Mathematics, Writing, etc.! – is an accurate GURPS-speak expression of what he felt school taught students from age 5 to 18.

What kids do have is points in Games and Hobby Skills; perhaps some Easy skills like Bicycling, Fishing, Singing, or Swimming; and maybe a harder pastime like Dancing, Musical Instrument, Riding, or Sports. This will depend on where they grow up . . . nothing there is universal. I'm amazed at how common Sports skills are in U.S. high schools, for instance, because that's not the way of things in Canada. Yet where I'm from (Nova Scotia), it's hard not to learn Swimming because the ocean is right there and parents freak out about their kids being unable to swim. Boating and Fishing are super-common, too.

After that, people start learning what they need to learn to function wherever they live, which isn't generic at all. Most adults have better-than-default levels in Area Knowledge and Current Affairs for their region. Yet if they decide to learn a Current Affairs specialty other than Regional, that's widely accepted – especially if it's Current Affairs (People, Popular Culture, or Sports). We have plenty of people around here who could tell you the latest hockey scores or who's on Dancing with the Stars this season, but who are blindsided by the rules the city has in place due to COVID-19.

It's hard to reach adulthood without at least a point in some "social" skill, too. This is most often Carousing, as that's probably the first one most people are exposed to ("Parrr-tayyy!"), and it's Easy. However, almost anything will do, be it Diplomacy, Leadership, Savoir-Faire, Streetwise, or something else. Connoisseur can stand in as "social" here; plenty of literature, music, opera, and wine snobs are intolerable yet admired for their knowledge.

Childhood "personal interest" skills may or may not be maintained. Some people stick with Bicycling, Dancing, Fishing, Musical Instrument, Singing, Swimming, or the same Games, Hobby Skills, and Sports they took up when young. Others drop those in favor of other things from the same list. I know plenty of people who've taken up Dancing and discarded Musical Instrument or Sports, for instance. Here, too, Connoisseur is a widely accepted substitute; things like wine-tasting and reading clubs are pastimes for many.

I'd take back what I once said about Computer Operation; today's "expert systems" have made that unnecessary. I realize that I have this skill when I install and configure software, test cables, set up networks, swap out RAM, etc. and people around me are shocked that I didn't go to an expert for that. I think we've left behind the time when it was a common skill. Those who can't use phones, PCs, and ATMs have an Incompetence quirk, giving -4 to their default. I'd say most modern gizmos give +6, so the average person's IQ-4 default becomes IQ+2 – a "professional" 12 for most – and hard to fail, while incompetents are operating at IQ-2 (or 8) and failing a lot.

I still stand by Housekeeping as common, just less universal than it was. I don't think modern labor-saving devices are good enough to let ordinary people get by at default without it showing. What I do believe is that because more of our social lives happen online rather than in our homes, and because it's no longer traditional for half of a couple to stay at home being a housekeeper, it's now less stigmatized to lack this skill. But it's still very, very common.

And I still dispute the universality of Driving in all TL8 areas. In some places, sure, you need it. Around here – a big city with excellent mass transit and very little parking, moving toward being more pedestrian- and bike-friendly, in a region that's poised to make gas-burners illegal and require car-owners to buy electric, which is less accessible – Driving is fast becoming less relevant. In response, there are a lot more people on traditional and electric bikes, electric skateboards and unicycles, and the various spiritual successors to Hoverboards and Segways. And there are a lot more of these available to rent from services like Bixi, Lime, and Uber Jump. So Bicycling and weirder skills like Sports (Skateboard) are getting very common.

Lastly, you have a job skill, most often one of Administration, Merchant, Research, or a Professional Skill. Those with Hard job skills like Accounting, Engineer, Finance, Law, Market Analysis, and Physician are less common, and generally admired, wealthy, or both relative to those with merely Average skills. But trades like Carpentry and Electrician are solid earners, and also common.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

When I think of most people, I think of billions of people living in what we would call poverty mostly in south and south-east Asia. Area Knowledge is probably the most universal depending on how you interpret the skill. Housekeeping, Hobby Skill, and Professional Skill probably come next (depending on how you interpret Hobby and Professional Skills). Maybe Dancing and/or Sports. Dabbler that covers a little Cooking perhaps. Can't think of much else.

Skills vary across populations. The other posters here seem to be either assuming a specific culture or have a very different understanding of global demographics than I have.

EDIT: Whoops! I see that the OP is referring to "developed nations." Ignore what I said. XD

Last edited by Edges; 12-01-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Late TL8 skills (almost) everyone has

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd take back what I once said about Computer Operation; today's "expert systems" have made that unnecessary. I realize that I have this skill when I install and configure software, test cables, set up networks, swap out RAM, etc. and people around me are shocked that I didn't go to an expert for that. I think we've left behind the time when it was a common skill.
I'm inclined to just scrap the skill altogether and replace it with Computer Administration, to emphasize the use case. Computer illiterates either lack familiarities (how many alleged computer illiterates have no trouble using software they're accustomed to?) or have Low TL (possibly at a quirk level; these are the "the cup-holder is broken" types).
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