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Old 10-30-2020, 12:31 AM   #11
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
The discount, though, is supposed to be applied to the Disadvantage points, reducing its value. So, a -10% on a -30 pt. disad would make it worth -27, effectively costing 3 points.
I'm applying -10% to an advantage called Not Mute (the "counter" per PU8)

Speech which only insubstantial characters can hear I posit should be worth -50%, so it would be [15][-30] = [-15] collectively.

If you want SOME substantial characters to hear you (but only when they're asleep) then it would be [27][-30] = [-3].

You'll probably have trouble holding a conversation, but you can wake sleeping normies up by screaming at them! Or whisper quietly enough not to wake them and maybe influence their dreamscape...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
giving the spirit the ability to talk to a sleeping character ends up costing points
If compared to something else you only gain an ability then that's usually how it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
being able to talk to insubstantial characters similarly
is less limiting than being Mute to everyone
Yes because the latter is Mute (everybody) so you have no version of "Not Mute" to counter it, giving the full value of the limitaiton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
So, it shouldn't really be an either/or limitation, right?
Either/or limitations are sometimes an oversimplification of making a "Not Limitation" a "Limited Enhancement" (how Fantasy does Restructurable Magery) so when I get confused over whether E/O applies, I try to break it down into that to see if it makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Each portion of the limitation provides a particular exception to the effects of not being able to speak:
"Substantial Only" allows Mute to be bypassed for Insubstantial entities
"Sleeping Subjects" provides a separate ability to bypass Mute to talk with those who are asleep.
Each separately reduces the Disadvantage value of Mute.
Let's consider 2 counters to Mute [-30] distinctly...
Not Mute (Sleeping Only -20%) [24]
Not Mute (Not Substantial -50%) [15]

The first is the most expensive. If I made the 2nd an Alternate Ability, 1/5 cost is 3 points, 24+3=27.

That's exactly the same math I get when I do 0.2 x 0.5 but I'm not entirely sure why. Somehow when you multiply the limitations' decimals it ends up working out to the 1/5 Alternate Abilities thing, unless this is a coincidence...
Lemme try...
Not Mute (One Person Only -80%) [6]
.8x.5=.4, -40% to 30 is 18 ...
15 adding 1 or 2 points doesn't equal that, I guess it just must've been a coincidence
Getting back to either-or in this place I think it works like this...

"Not Sleeping Only" is a +20% enhancement meant to cancel out "sleeping only".
Applying "Not Substantial -50% as a limited enhamcent makes it cost +10%

10 minus 20 = -10

It works in reverse too:
"Not Not Substantial +50%" applying -20% is +40%
40-50 = -10
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Old 10-30-2020, 09:19 AM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)

Mute is -25 CP, not -30 CP. Anyway, it is established in Fantasy and Horror that Mute can have normal limitations without that sort of complexity. In Fantasy (p. 134), they give unmanifested spirits Mute (Substantial Only, -10%) [-22] or, if they are capable of materialization, Mute (Substantial Only, -10%; Only in Spirit Form, -10%) [-20]. In Horror, they give similar limitations for the Arendians (p. 85) and Poltergeist (p. 79). In no way do they force the template to purchase a limited No Mute and Mute to represent limited Mute, because that would be an unnecessary complexity.
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:13 AM   #13
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)

Amending some of my prev math for 30pts base thanks to AH correction below:



Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Mute is -25 CP, not -30 CP.
Right! For a second I was going to blame Deafness for mixing me up but that's -20 so that won't work... was talking about Unhealing recently which is -30 and like Cannot Speak / Mute is the worse of a 2-step disad, so I bet that's where the wires crossed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Anyway, it is established in Fantasy and Horror that Mute can have normal limitations without that sort of complexity.

In Fantasy (p. 134), they give unmanifested spirits Mute (Substantial Only, -10%) [-22] or, if they are capable of materialization, Mute (Substantial Only, -10%; Only in Spirit Form, -10%) [-20]. In Horror, they give similar limitations for the Arendians (p. 85) and Poltergeist (p. 79).
Mentioned both books already on Oct 28:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Substantial Only was meant for advantages like Invisibility, being applied as a mitigator to a disadvantage like Mute as Fantasy did (H78 also did w/ Cannot Speak for ghosts, and H79 for Poltergeist) goes against PU8p6's guidelines of limiting a "counter" like "No Deafness".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In no way do they force the template to purchase a limited No Mute and Mute to represent limited Mute, because that would be an unnecessary complexity.
F2006/H2011 was years before PU8 in 2014 so I figure the later material takes precedence. I think that F/H just do that because the idea of using 'counter' advantages to define mitigation had not been fully explored by that point.

Pg 6 has Ada paying 16cp per +1 to "Day IQ" while Bob only pays 4cp per +1 to Day IQ.

The point being made there is that "only at night" should shift from being a -20% accessibility for advantages to a -80% accessibility on disadvantages.

So for a -10% limitation on advantages, it should shift into a -90% mitigation on a disadvantage.

If we don't do that, then for example we get:

"my disadvantage only applies 94% of the time" (PU8p4) = -0% = getting a benefit without actually paying for it, considered equal to disadvantage 100% of the time

Meanwhile "my disadvantage only applies when interacting with one in 10,000 " for -50% (PU8p4) still gives you HALF the usual points to play with while barely limiting yourself at all.

Something like that shouldn't really save any points since your "advantage" (not having the disadvantage) applies more than 94% of the time which is -0%. If it was, it should probably be worth somewhere between 1% and 4% if we could come up with some mathematical formula for converting % of time into % discount for Accessibility rather than the "multiple of 5" approach taken for simplicity in PU8.
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:51 AM   #14
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)

The rules in PU8 do not replace or have precedence over the previously published books in 4e. The books would have been corrected in the errata if that was the case. In the case of the given example in PU8, that is just an example of GM carelessness, as no GM should have allowed Bob to occur.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 10-30-2020 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:37 PM   #15
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The rules in PU8 do not replace or have precedence over the previously published books in 4e.
The books would have been corrected in the errata if that was the case.
M101 altered Magery 0 ("Magery 0; that ability only detects permanent magic items") which I view as overriding B66 "when you first see a magic item" even if no errata is published adding "permanent" to BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In the case of the given example in PU8, that is just an example of GM carelessness, as no GM should have allowed Bob to occur.
GM carefulness could be applying the "Limiting Disadvantages" policy (Ada and Bob) to all mitigators, including where necessary, rewriting examples of mitigators just porting over the standard limitations designed for advantages.

Something like "Deafness (Substantial Only -10%)" isn't much different than the Mute dilemma, just with direction reversed: hearing what humans say vs being able to say things to them.

The PU8 example is not to take a -10% limitation on deafness directly though, but to use Not Deaf and limit that.

So instead of getting 90% the discount you should get 50% the discount.

90% discounts don't even happen when your ability can only affect 1 person. Being able to speak to 1 person or hear 1 person is still considered something merely worth -80%.
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