10-30-2020, 12:31 AM | #11 | ||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)
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Speech which only insubstantial characters can hear I posit should be worth -50%, so it would be [15][-30] = [-15] collectively. If you want SOME substantial characters to hear you (but only when they're asleep) then it would be [27][-30] = [-3]. You'll probably have trouble holding a conversation, but you can wake sleeping normies up by screaming at them! Or whisper quietly enough not to wake them and maybe influence their dreamscape... Quote:
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Either/or limitations are sometimes an oversimplification of making a "Not Limitation" a "Limited Enhancement" (how Fantasy does Restructurable Magery) so when I get confused over whether E/O applies, I try to break it down into that to see if it makes sense. Quote:
Not Mute (Sleeping Only -20%) [24] Not Mute (Not Substantial -50%) [15] The first is the most expensive. If I made the 2nd an Alternate Ability, 1/5 cost is 3 points, 24+3=27. That's exactly the same math I get when I do 0.2 x 0.5 but I'm not entirely sure why. Somehow when you multiply the limitations' decimals it ends up working out to the 1/5 Alternate Abilities thing, unless this is a coincidence... Lemme try...Getting back to either-or in this place I think it works like this... "Not Sleeping Only" is a +20% enhancement meant to cancel out "sleeping only". Applying "Not Substantial -50% as a limited enhamcent makes it cost +10% 10 minus 20 = -10 It works in reverse too: "Not Not Substantial +50%" applying -20% is +40% 40-50 = -10 |
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10-30-2020, 09:19 AM | #12 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)
Mute is -25 CP, not -30 CP. Anyway, it is established in Fantasy and Horror that Mute can have normal limitations without that sort of complexity. In Fantasy (p. 134), they give unmanifested spirits Mute (Substantial Only, -10%) [-22] or, if they are capable of materialization, Mute (Substantial Only, -10%; Only in Spirit Form, -10%) [-20]. In Horror, they give similar limitations for the Arendians (p. 85) and Poltergeist (p. 79). In no way do they force the template to purchase a limited No Mute and Mute to represent limited Mute, because that would be an unnecessary complexity.
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10-30-2020, 11:13 AM | #13 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)
Amending some of my prev math for 30pts base thanks to AH correction below:
Right! For a second I was going to blame Deafness for mixing me up but that's -20 so that won't work... was talking about Unhealing recently which is -30 and like Cannot Speak / Mute is the worse of a 2-step disad, so I bet that's where the wires crossed. Quote:
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Pg 6 has Ada paying 16cp per +1 to "Day IQ" while Bob only pays 4cp per +1 to Day IQ. The point being made there is that "only at night" should shift from being a -20% accessibility for advantages to a -80% accessibility on disadvantages. So for a -10% limitation on advantages, it should shift into a -90% mitigation on a disadvantage. If we don't do that, then for example we get: "my disadvantage only applies 94% of the time" (PU8p4) = -0% = getting a benefit without actually paying for it, considered equal to disadvantage 100% of the time Meanwhile "my disadvantage only applies when interacting with one in 10,000 " for -50% (PU8p4) still gives you HALF the usual points to play with while barely limiting yourself at all. Something like that shouldn't really save any points since your "advantage" (not having the disadvantage) applies more than 94% of the time which is -0%. If it was, it should probably be worth somewhere between 1% and 4% if we could come up with some mathematical formula for converting % of time into % discount for Accessibility rather than the "multiple of 5" approach taken for simplicity in PU8. |
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10-30-2020, 11:51 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)
The rules in PU8 do not replace or have precedence over the previously published books in 4e. The books would have been corrected in the errata if that was the case. In the case of the given example in PU8, that is just an example of GM carelessness, as no GM should have allowed Bob to occur.
Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 10-30-2020 at 11:58 AM. |
10-30-2020, 04:37 PM | #15 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Spirits and Mute (Substantial Only)
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Something like "Deafness (Substantial Only -10%)" isn't much different than the Mute dilemma, just with direction reversed: hearing what humans say vs being able to say things to them. The PU8 example is not to take a -10% limitation on deafness directly though, but to use Not Deaf and limit that. So instead of getting 90% the discount you should get 50% the discount. 90% discounts don't even happen when your ability can only affect 1 person. Being able to speak to 1 person or hear 1 person is still considered something merely worth -80%. |
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dreaming, spirits |
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