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Old 03-06-2018, 10:14 AM   #11
offsides
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
My thoughts exactly on A2 AP weapons. They represent either very high ROF, low caliber weapons or weapons with really excellent (and expensive) targeting tech.
I think for simplicity purposes, it's better to stick with A1 as the max for AP. Realistically, anything heavy enough to do A2 AP would probably do A1 against armor, and that's not an existing mechanic. Yes, it could be added as a new rule (either A2 AP/A1 everyone, or A1 (doubled against INF)), but that makes things more complicated than it's worth. Besides, it's probably cheaper to just bring in 2 INF (not to mention better for defense) than to have 1 A2 (AP) specialist INF unit...
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Last edited by offsides; 03-06-2018 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Submit too soon
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:14 PM   #12
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I think for simplicity purposes, it's better to stick with A1 as the max for AP. Realistically, anything heavy enough to do A2 AP would probably do A1 against armor, and that's not an existing mechanic. Yes, it could be added as a new rule (either A2 AP/A1 everyone, or A1 (doubled against INF)), but that makes things more complicated than it's worth. Besides, it's probably cheaper to just bring in 2 INF (not to mention better for defense) than to have 1 A2 (AP) specialist INF unit...
+1

AP strikes me as a special notation for "This attack is so weak it can't puncture anything thicker than an infantry battlesuit, no matter how many rounds we hit it with"...1 round or 1,000,000 rounds, a .22LR simply isn't puncturing Bismarck's armor belt. It's what was running through my mind when I posted in the Heavy Weapons Again thread...suggesting that to do an AP specialist infantry ("snipers"), give them additional range at the expense of power.

Still playing with it, but am not sure if I'm using Henry's calculator correctly because of 4 slots and 6 "attacks" to consider...so ran the math on a single squad instead of a platoon of 3, then modified his 'heavy weapon team' example to doublecheck and it worked out. Here's the latest, if it contributes to the discussion at all.

A1/R1 -or- A1/R3 AP (cannot fire both in the same attack phase / overrun turn)
M2, D1, Terrain as Infantry, Ninja Stealth (-1 to CRT rolls against them, no combining fire unless adjacent), Overruns Doubled
Cost: 3.9VP (1AU) per squad, estimated 11.7VP to 12.2VP (2AU) per platoon

The Stealth fits the concept of not making themselves easy targets (counterfiring on a sniper is a right pain), and is also helpful in bumping the VP costs up to "specialty infantry" prices.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:35 PM   #13
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I think for simplicity purposes, it's better to stick with A1 as the max for AP. Realistically, anything heavy enough to do A2 AP would probably do A1 against armor, and that's not an existing mechanic.
Err... What about the mechanic of 2 AP guns (SHVY) in combined fire - or all 8 AP guns on a MkIII ?

I'm with you on cost. I'd want more than two AP attack factors for double-price.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Err... What about the mechanic of 2 AP guns (SHVY) in combined fire - or all 8 AP guns on a MkIII ?
My guess is he's talking about base ratings, something meaty enough to have "2/[whatever], AP" printed on its stat sheet.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:43 AM   #15
offsides
 
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Err... What about the mechanic of 2 AP guns (SHVY) in combined fire - or all 8 AP guns on a MkIII ?

I'm with you on cost. I'd want more than two AP attack factors for double-price.
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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
My guess is he's talking about base ratings, something meaty enough to have "2/[whatever], AP" printed on its stat sheet.
Correct. 2 AP guns combine for a an aggregate A2, but it's still only effective against INF/D0 targets. Anything that can do A2 by itself should probably be able to do A1 against non-AP targets, otherwise it wouldn't have enough power to do A2 to begin with...
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:57 PM   #16
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Correct. 2 AP guns combine for a an aggregate A2, but it's still only effective against INF/D0 targets. Anything that can do A2 by itself should probably be able to do A1 against non-AP targets, otherwise it wouldn't have enough power to do A2 to begin with...
Got it. I don't agree.

It really depends on what you have to do to mission-kill an INF counter. You don't have to get some form of mass or energy through the BPC for an CRT X; you just have to eliminate the INF's combat effectiveness. Break his nuclear shell RPG, bump the suit hard enough to knock out the man, zoink that critical ECM system with a blast of microwaves, set off a glue grenade to freeze his exoskeleton, use your more bloody-minded imagination. If he can't shoot he's done. (In the same vein you can set off a nuclear shell just underneath a SHVY's left treads and flip it upside-down. An INF counter might survive that to fight on.)

Most of these attacks wouldn't take out an LT, even if you did them twice, or twice as well as that 1 AP weapon. Thus a 2 AP attack sounds fine to me.

I'd argue that a 2/1 AP gun has a precedent via Nihon ogres firing monowire, but don't remember if it's from GURPS Ogre or somewhere else. Or you could just tie two 1/1 AP guns together. [SHRUG/]

A 2/? AP attack wouldn't break the game, given precedents. I'm not sure we'd pull any AP-only counter out of the box given how rarely people target AP guns.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Correct. 2 AP guns combine for a an aggregate A2, but it's still only effective against INF/D0 targets. Anything that can do A2 by itself should probably be able to do A1 against non-AP targets, otherwise it wouldn't have enough power to do A2 to begin with...
While I did just post a couple entries ago that I'd rather add range than power to make AP infantry, for something like carpet bombs or standoff-dispenser munitions for a Howitzer, I could (in theory) see where increasing the A-rating makes sense...where it's covering such a wide area with such a large amount of shrapnel that the likelihood of 'dodging a bullet' due to a well-placed tree, rock, or squadmate drops to effectively nothing, making it an aggregated attack unto itself. Not an increase in power, but an increase in likelihood of getting caught by it.

The problem comes in that the tactical use case of making something like that AP-specific is so narrow...really only good for clearing infantry out of a town, forest, or swamp you need to leave intact for whatever reason instead of bombing to rubble...that I don't know if it's practical outside of scenario-specific 'twist' units.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:33 PM   #18
FJCestero
 
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

Anything with a enough rate of fire to score an 2*(AP) attack is spitting out enough low-caliber bullets to be modeled as two individual 1*(AP) attacks that can engage multiple targets.

So there is no such thing as a 2*(AP), or 3*(AP), or 4*(AP), etc attack, which still can't damage real armor. There is however such things as 2x1*(AP), 3x1*(AP), and 4x1*(AP), etc which we already have the means for as simply saying "X number of standard AP guns".

Plus, it's just easier on the brain cells.

I can see AP weapons with more than 1 hex range, some sort of mortar or exploding shell spraying small fragments and such. You might define an AP round fired, say, from a HWZ/MHWZ that is 6*(AP) with the added benefit that it ignores infantry terrain defense bonuses... 6*(AP,NoCover).

On a meta-philosophical note, I'm resistant to specialized infantry past a certain point. I take the view that our vanilla 1/1 D1 M2 infantry is a highly rationalized/optimized configuration already. I.e.: the balanced configuration of weapons, armor & mobility that through experience and hard-won lessons has shown itself to be the most effective on the battlefield. Yes, specialization is possible, but is it worth it??? Every specialized infantry requires an equally specialized logistical tail including equipment and (more importantly) training. Plus there's the upfront R&D costs plus the added costs of small production runs. Why have one squad of specialized infantry when you can have 3 or 4 extra Vanillas? On the battlefields of the Last War with auto-factories churning stuff out 24/7, quantity has a quality all its own...

Still, yes, it can be fun to experiment. Or just goof around.
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Old 03-08-2018, 01:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by FJCestero View Post
Anything with a enough rate of fire to score an 2*(AP) attack is spitting out enough low-caliber bullets to be modeled as two individual 1*(AP) attacks that can engage multiple targets.
Yes, that's it - if you can hit with a single shell and do A2 damage, it's not going to be weak enough to be AP only. And if you're firing enough light projectiles to do A2 but only against INF, you can split that into 2 A1(AP) attacks instead. Thanks for helping me clarify my own thoughts!
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:18 PM   #20
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: Alternative infantry Units

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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
Yes, that's it - if you can hit with a single shell and do A2 damage, it's not going to be weak enough to be AP only. And if you're firing enough light projectiles to do A2 but only against INF, you can split that into 2 A1(AP) attacks instead. Thanks for helping me clarify my own thoughts!
Very succinctly said! That's the kind of thing I was trying for in talking about penetration ability and increasing A being increasing the likelihood of being hit not the oomph of a single shell, but wasn't able to get across.

The only dissonance I continue to have is "What about a great big cloud of submunitions?" Something like a frag mortar, or a cluster bomb, where it's "This hex is being carpeted with explosives. If you're in this hex, it sucks to be you" rather than "I'm going to sweep my machine gun across this group of infantry, then group of infantry, now I'm going to sweep this third group twice as long because screw those guys..." Something like that you can't just hold target for longer to do more damage...

I suppose we could call it "In that case, splitting it represents where you put ground zero, since you can aim the barrage so that the blast radius covers more of group A than of group B", but it just...it doesn't feel right, y'know? It's a splinter in my mind that I can't dig out, and it's driving me nuts.

Either way, I have to applaud how concise it ended up being. Bravo, you two!
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