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Old 02-20-2018, 09:17 PM   #11
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
Remembering that they can’t fire long range while transported or are doubled in overrun is less fiddly, to me, than remembering which heavy weapon unit has fired its missiles.
I agree. I prefer "not fiddly at all." It plays better with the rest of the game. Every caveat can interact with other caveats, so fewer caveats is best.

Quote:
I mean, think about it: how many shots do you expect a platoon of these to get off? One or two. And they don’t have the effect of launching 9 attack points all at once, as three steps of HVY WPNs infantry do.
I expect them to punch above their weight. First, they'd be better able to make use of cover, because they can choose to move into one of many hexes and still keep a target in range. Second, they can coordinate with regular INF to set up a layered defense while retaining INF mobility. I bet I could get three-four shots off, plus get better effect from my regular INF. One or two extra attack factors helps on the CRT as the INF attrite away.

I still might prefer 2INF to one sniper, just to provide more targets.

1 SHVY vs 3 snipers - I'd take the SHVY unless on a swamp map. I don't think I'd take them if the battlefield has enough clear terrain and roads to support MSLs.

Maybe that last comparison says we should be questioning Henry's calculator. Would you rather take 3 snipers or 2 MSL? No snipers at R3 if you get that choice. Two MSLs are likely more durable at D2 each, hit twice as hard, and not horribly immobile in the woods. Maybe you can just park them in the swamp

Given that, what does the forum think of A1 R4 D1 M2, doubled in overruns, can fire while mounted, takes two seats, for 4 VP each? I think it's worth a game at least.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:34 AM   #12
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova Brasília
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

I don’t know about the “takes two seats” deal. It is going to make them unusually vulnerable when transported.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:21 AM   #13
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
I don’t know about the “takes two seats” deal. It is going to make them unusually vulnerable when transported.
It does mean they'll be at best a D2 target (one sniper, one INF) on a GEV-PC, and can't ride on LTs. It keeps a GEV-PC from having A3 with a strike range of 7 (8 over water) by limiting it to A1.

It could be too fiddly. What's the restriction on HWTs ? Is it "no hitching rides" ?

Last edited by dwalend; 02-21-2018 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:13 AM   #14
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova Brasília
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
It does mean they'll be at best a D2 target on a GEV-PC, and can't ride on LTs. It keeps a GEV-PC from having A3 with a strike range of 7 (8 over water) by limiting it to A1.

It could be too fiddly. What's the restriction on HWTs ? Is it "no hitching rides" ?
AFAIK, there is no restriction: just a lot of talk about how one is needed.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:32 PM   #15
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

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Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
AFAIK, there is no restriction: just a lot of talk about how one is needed.
You are right. Heavy Weapons Teams – Draft of 7-13-2016.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:11 AM   #16
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova Brasília
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

For what it is worth, I think those rules are reasonable. Although why anyone would waste VPs on extra missiles is beyond me. A unit that fires its missile is, by definition, within 4 hexes of an enemy unit. A truck is not going to survive in that environment.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:07 PM   #17
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

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Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
For what it is worth, I think those rules are reasonable. Although why anyone would waste VPs on extra missiles is beyond me.
A MSL seems like better economy of force. With an infantry screen it could even last more than three turns.

Having a stash of spares at a hard point could be an interesting gimmick for a scenario.
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:18 AM   #18
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova Brasília
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
A MSL seems like better economy of force. With an infantry screen it could even last more than three turns.

Having a stash of spares at a hard point could be an interesting gimmick for a scenario.
A WPNs platoon cost the same as two MSL, but move and defend better in close terrain, can be sped up by GEV-PCs, and can fire off three shots at once. I think that they are about equal to the two MSL. Giving them the ability to fire while transported, however, is too much of a good thing.

Last edited by Macunaima; 02-23-2018 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 02-23-2018, 08:25 AM   #19
TheAmishStig
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
A WPNs platoon cost the same as two MSL, but move better and defende in close terrain, can be sped up by GEV-PCs, and can fire off three shots at once. I think that they are about equal to the two MSL. Giving them the ability to fire while transported, however, is too much of a good thing.
I'm ok with them retaining a basic 1/1 attack while mounted, but agreed, the 'special' attack from a moving vehicle is probably way too powerful for what they are.

According to the Battle Box draft rules (more recent than, and we can assume will supersede, the website-published supplementary rules), HWTs can't fire the missile while mounted, or in the turn they dismount. For sake of rules consistency, it should probably be that way for any infantry with a "special attack": infantry with special attack options may only use their basic 1/1 attack while mounted, may not use their special attack in the turn they dismount, and may not use their special attack in any phase [fire phase or overrun round] they used their basic attack.

Conceptually, it makes sense...you're not going to be popping off mortars, missiles, anti-material rifles, etc from the flank of a bouncing tank, but there's nothing stopping you from running rounds through your standard-issue rifle.

There's also no mention of "two seats" for HWTs, so that's probably a non-starter that was squashed in playtesting. There's still the potential for revisions before release, but it's probably a safe assumption to let that one go.
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:59 AM   #20
offsides
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

The only reason I can see Snipers taking up more room on a GEV-PC to fire is because they need to lie down with they long-range weapons to properly use them. But they totally should be able to pack on normally for transport purposes, along with firing regular weapons. But like with regular HWT, I say just don't let them fire when mounted, and it keeps things simple, aligned with existing rules, and doesn't make them too powerful.
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