Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Ogre and G.E.V.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2018, 10:54 AM   #1
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova BrasŪlia
Default Heavy Weapons, once again.

I have been wondering whether it might not be a good idea to make Heavy Weapons Squads 1-4-1-2 rather than regular infantry with a single 3-4 attack. Obviously, they couldnít fire on a turn they are transported. Also, they would not be doubled in combat strength in overruns.

What do you all think?
Macunaima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 12:02 PM   #2
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
I have been wondering whether it might not be a good idea to make Heavy Weapons Squads 1-4-1-2 rather than regular infantry with a single 3-4 attack. Obviously, they couldnít fire on a turn they are transported. Also, they would not be doubled in combat strength in overruns.

What do you all think?
A1 R4 D1 M2 ? So long-range always, instead of a one-shot missile tank round? That's a big change thematically, different purpose on the battlefield. It could be fun, allows for some more interesting setups in an INF-heavy game.

Have you tried it? How does it play out?
dwalend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 05:15 PM   #3
wolf90
Ogre Line Editor
 
wolf90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
Also, they would not be doubled in combat strength in overruns.
Why not? Their advantage is completely nullified in an overrun situation. They are no better (nor worse) than a standard Infantryman in that case.

D.
__________________
Proud sponsor of Ogre KS $4.5k Sheet #3 - Bringing the Vatican Guard, a Tiger-striped mercenary unit, and of course pink GEVs, to a game near you! Orders may be placed here.
wolf90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 07:18 PM   #4
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
Why not? Their advantage is completely nullified in an overrun situation. They are no better (nor worse) than a standard Infantryman in that case.
Plus the fewer fiddly exceptions the better.

How much would "no firing while mounted" matter? A GEV-PC + R4 has a strike range of 7, but it only has A1.

Would A1 R4 D1 M2 still need two seats? (I think yes. That limits it to one per GEV-PC.)
dwalend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 07:32 PM   #5
CON_Troll
 
CON_Troll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orlando, FL. Please forgive me...
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
A1 R4 D1 M2 ? So long-range always, instead of a one-shot missile tank round? That's a big change thematically, different purpose on the battlefield. It could be fun, allows for some more interesting setups in an INF-heavy game.
How about declaring this a "sniper" INF unit?
I ran the numbers, both with and without overrun capability in Henry Cobb's calculator (at http://www.hcobb.com/gev/formcalc.html)
WITHOUT overrun ability: 4.56 VPs
WITH overrun ability: 4.73 VPs
As you can see, there is very little difference.

However, here is where we run into the situation of "improbable statistics" as laid out in Steve Jackson's OGRE article "System Parameters and Limitations" in the 2nd edition of The OGRE Book. Specifically where he says: "...to qualify for a range longer than 4, it has to be a heavy projectile - minimum of 3 attack strength, and probably more." This would seem to suggest that a unit with an attack strength of 1 probably cannot reach even four hexes.

Sooo, my recommendation is that the above "sniper" INF should be VERY expensive. 4 VPs if the unit cannot double in an overrun and 6 VPs if it CAN double in an overrun. A sniper INF cannot attack armor units (including the train) at more than the normal range for INF (all INF, buildings and terrain may be targeted up to 4 hexes away.) Further, it should be a much rarer unit than other specialist INF. No more than 10% of the VP allowed for INF in a scenario may be snipers.
__________________
"How do you know it's an OGRE Ninja if we can't see it... Oh, right..."
John H.
CON_Troll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 09:45 PM   #6
Deimos
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livonia, MI
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Plus the fewer fiddly exceptions the better.
I'm not normally enamored with non-cannon rules/units, but I think I could see myself giving this variation some serious thought and play-testing, with the very limited opportunity that I have to play.

In keeping with the above quote, I'd say make the A1 R4 D1 M2 HWT a straight swap with the standard, giving up a 3x one-shot attack (baring a reload) for a long range standard one, keeping all the rules lined out in 3.02.2 and 3.02.4 the same except for the inherent attack vs. one-shot and reloading parts.

Saying that they're armed with a high ROF small bore explosive/missile weapon system vs. a very large bore one-shot one makes this easy. It'd be similar to arming a modern infantry squad with a MK-47 automatic grenade launcher vs. a AT-4C Spigot C, roughly speaking.

This would keep them in the rare category, unless a scenario REALLY has more inf points than you know what to do with. A single one won't be much more than a nuisance to anything with a D2 and completely useless against D3+, but 2 or 3 in a critical spot could open up the opportunity to explore some interesting tactics on both defending with and assaulting said spot.
__________________
That which does not destroy me, makes me stronger. - Nietzsche
That which does not destroy me, missed. - Anonymous war gamer
Deimos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 10:53 PM   #7
dwalend
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

LRWT - Long Range Weapon Team

A1 R3 D1 M1 - An R3 variant on INF for 4 VP.

Just like infantry. In overruns. Can fire while mounted. Takes two seats.

That brings it in at 3.73 VP on Henry's calculator, with a little wiggle room for riding on tanks and GEV-PCs. It also keeps them a bit expensive, as CON_Troll suggests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deimos View Post
This would keep them in the rare category, unless a scenario REALLY has more inf points than you know what to do with. A single one won't be much more than a nuisance to anything with a D2 and completely useless against D3+, but 2 or 3 in a critical spot could open up the opportunity to explore some interesting tactics on both defending with and assaulting said spot.
The scenarios where they'd shine is all-INF vs INF-and-HWZ-and-laser towers. In a swamp with ridges.
dwalend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 04:23 AM   #8
Macunaima
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Nova BrasŪlia
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Take out the overrun capability and now you are at 3.55. If they canít fire greater than one hex range when they are mounted, you could justify making them cost 3 points, or 1.5 infantry units.

Remembering that they canít fire long range while transported or are doubled in overrun is less fiddly, to me, than remembering which heavy weapon unit has fired its missiles.

If you stay at 1-4 range with both those rules, you could justify a 4 point unit. Having them at range three and allowing them to double in overruns and fire while being transported justifies a cost of 4.

I mean, think about it: how many shots do you expect a platoon of these to get off? One or two. And they donít have the effect of launching 9 attack points all at once, as three steps of HVY WPNs infantry do.

Granted, they violate Steveís color text, but they donít break the game.

Last edited by Macunaima; 02-20-2018 at 04:27 AM.
Macunaima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 12:44 PM   #9
TheAmishStig
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CON_Troll View Post
How about declaring this a "sniper" INF unit?
I ran the numbers, both with and without overrun capability in Henry Cobb's calculator (at http://www.hcobb.com/gev/formcalc.html)
WITHOUT overrun ability: 4.56 VPs
WITH overrun ability: 4.73 VPs
As you can see, there is very little difference.

However, here is where we run into the situation of "improbable statistics" as laid out in Steve Jackson's OGRE article "System Parameters and Limitations" in the 2nd edition of The OGRE Book. Specifically where he says: "...to qualify for a range longer than 4, it has to be a heavy projectile - minimum of 3 attack strength, and probably more." This would seem to suggest that a unit with an attack strength of 1 probably cannot reach even four hexes.

Sooo, my recommendation is that the above "sniper" INF should be VERY expensive. 4 VPs if the unit cannot double in an overrun and 6 VPs if it CAN double in an overrun. A sniper INF cannot attack armor units (including the train) at more than the normal range for INF (all INF, buildings and terrain may be targeted up to 4 hexes away.) Further, it should be a much rarer unit than other specialist INF. No more than 10% of the VP allowed for INF in a scenario may be snipers.
I dig it.

Playing with Henry's calculator, I came up with a couple variants that are reasonably priced, keep with the conceptual theme of long-range anti-infantry infantry, but do so due to limitations and might be able to fit under the usual 'specialist infantry' rules rather than needing their own unique ratio. If you start with Henry's Infantry template (1/1@3 attacks, D3@inf, M2) and then bump up the numbers...

Scenario 1: 1/4, D1, M2. Gets the infantry attack/defense bonus, doubles in overruns. What keeps the cost reasonable and keeps with the 'Sniper' theme is that it fires as an AP [infantry / D0 / scenario-designated targets only]....bringing it to 6.24VP / 1AU for a platoon of 3.

Scenario 2: Cutting their range and making them 1/3 instead of 1/4 changes the costs to 5.21 VP / 1AU for a platoon of 3.

Scenario 3: Giving the Scenario 1 version high-tech ghillie suits [Ninja Stealth] bumps it up to 9.36VP / 1.5AU for a platoon of 3. A neat idea, but gets away from the clean '0.5AU, 1AU, 2AU' system in play...unless you're required to purchase them in individual squads, which reduces the cost to 3.03VP / 0.5AU. That makes them 50% more expensive than a squad of standard infantry, while retaining a unique purpose and clean AU costs.

Scenario 4: A 1/3 version of Scenario 3 is 7.82VP / 1.5AU for a Platoon, or 2.53VP / 0.5AU for a single squad.

Personally, I like Scenario 4 (1/3 with Stealth) or, failing that, Scenario 2 (1/3)...I can't quantify it as anything more than a gut feeling, and maybe playtesting will prove me wrong, but a range of 4 just "feels" too long. That's missile tank ranges...which works for HWTs, because at that point it's easy to argue they're armed with a single Missile Tank missile in a squad-portable launcher, not unlike the modern day Javelin.

Being partial to Stealth comes from it neatly encompassing that Snipers are going to be small teams playing vantage points and cover, not milling about in large herds of battle armor...it's going to be harder to counter-fire against them unless you're in their face.
__________________
Andy Mull
Agent #0460
Lancaster, PA

Imgur: https://agent0460.imgur.com/

Last edited by TheAmishStig; 02-20-2018 at 01:14 PM.
TheAmishStig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 06:00 PM   #10
Dave Crowell
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default Re: Heavy Weapons, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macunaima View Post
Take out the overrun capability and now you are at 3.55. If they canít fire greater than one hex range when they are mounted, you could justify making them cost 3 points, or 1.5 infantry units.

Remembering that they canít fire long range while transported or are doubled in overrun is less fiddly, to me, than remembering which heavy weapon unit has fired its missiles.

If you stay at 1-4 range with both those rules, you could justify a 4 point unit. Having them at range three and allowing them to double in overruns and fire while being transported justifies a cost of 4.

I mean, think about it: how many shots do you expect a platoon of these to get off? One or two. And they donít have the effect of launching 9 attack points all at once, as three steps of HVY WPNs infantry do.

Granted, they violate Steveís color text, but they donít break the game.
I think they are worth a playtest. Trading attack strength for range is an interesting option. Part of the fun of Ogre for me is the interesting tradeoffs and options.

As for remembering which HWT INF have fired, I usually swap them out for regular infantry after they take their shot.
Dave Crowell is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.