Why multiply HP for Unliving, etc.?

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Akahige

So the mass/HP connection isn't as absolute as it's been made to sound?


Ok, but doesn't it seem odd that steel can be something like seventy times tougher than flesh, yet Unliving cars only get x2 HP? (And please don't say "but they get DR", because that just brings us back to the question of why steel HP are no tougher than flesh after an attack penetrates the DR.)

There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) A car is "unliving" rather than homogenous. The HP of a car are not those of the steel frame, but rather abstract those of the *car's components* - primarily the damage required to disable *any* of the crucial parts (engine, transmission, radiator), etc. that make up a car. A typical car occupies about 200-300 cubic feet and weighs some 3500 lbs. That's a density less than a human being - most of a "car" is air, upholstery, complex machinery, some steel, some vulnerable hydraulics lines, etc.

2) Steel HP. Remember, if HP are based on *weight* steel wins out. Consider:

a human being is about 2 cf of meat and water. It weighs about 150 lbs. In GURPS, it has about 10 hp, or 20 if unliving. The human has no DR.

A humanoid statue of steel with the same dimensions - 2 cf - would weigh about 980 lbs. due to steel's greater density. If it's homogenous - "nothing in it but steel to damage" - it gets 4x HP. So it has HP 79 for the same *volume* of material. Also, a steel humanoid has an area of about 20 sf. Assuming it's mild steel that statue would be DR 67 armor, HP 79.

So: steel golem: DR 67, HP 79.
Flesh person: DR 0, HP 10.
Flesh golem: DR 0-2 (?), HP 20.

[David L Pulver]

This doesn’t explain anything, since this was never in question. The question is “why do Unliving, Homogenous things etc have more HP than living things of the same weight?” not “What are HP?”

*Living thing: vulnerable to system failure from destruction of a small part. There are multiple internal organs any of which if damaged or destroyed will cause incapacitation or death, not to mention pain, shock, etc.
* Unliving thing: Less vulnerable. An airplane or car can be shot full of holes, but still function. Tear the doors of a car and it will still work fine. Tear the skin off a person and he's moaning in pain. Tear the skin off a zombie and he's a skeleton and still coming... Or think Terminator (arnie-model).
* Homogenous thing. You can keep smashing it to bits, but it doesn't matter until you've structurally destroyed it. A block of wood. A golem. A raft. Or think a terminator (liquid metal model) .

Now, there are also *damage modifiers* for each type of damage. So burning damage is fully effective vs. all three types as it affects a larger surface area, but piercing damage is most effectively against living things, because the damage area is relatively small. You are perhaps arguing for a big damage divisor. But a big damage divisor (homogenous takes x1/4 damage from everything) not only loses the flavor - the current system encourages you to choose your weapons and deal with zombies with axes and flamethrowers - but also is essentially identical to giving 4x HP anyway.

So, the system simply recommends that anything that is homogenous have 4x HP and anything unliving have 2x HP and then piles on additional divisors as necessary.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

No, because you focus on only one specific aspect of the whole.

An aspect you appear to be avoiding the point on. You still haven’t answered why it’s harder to chop the limbs off a vampire than a human? Is it because you don’t have an answer?

Originally Posted by cccwebs

What you miss is that "pound for pound", steel can take more punisment than flesh.

Not relevant, no one is arguing that some materials aren’t tougher than other materials.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Well, the Undead don't automatically get double the HP that they did in life (for GURPS).

And homogenous things don’t “automatically” get 4X the HP that a living creature of the same weight does.

So far all the vampire templates do (Approx 20-25 HP), the lich and the wight from Fantasy seem to be using the formula too (it’s hard to tell since they’re skeletal what their weight is), if they do the lich weighs 27lbs and the wight 42lbs, that sounds reasonable for creatures with the “skeletal undead” template. Magic screws this up a bit as neither the zombie nor the skeleton fit, but the mummy seems to be okay (52lbs for a dried out corpse) the lich seems to be skeletal (no eyes) and has the same HP as fantasy, the wraith has 20 HP. So on the whole undead do seem to be using the formula as a guideline.

You’re right that you could build an undead template that doesn’t have as many HP as the table suggests, but you could build a template with homogenous that doesn’t have as many HP the table suggests either. You’re not required to have extra HP just because you take one of these advantages.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I think you're grasping here as the intent of the formula is for objects, not creatures (note, it does say "nonliving artifacts", so your usage may vary)

What is the difference between an object and a creature? Is a robot an object or a creature? Characters with the machine meta-trait seem to function as “objects” p.483.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Actually it explains a lot, if you're willing to stop for a minute and look at the whole instead of focusing on one little part.

Yet you avoid answering the question for that “little part”, Why is it harder to dismember an undead than a living person?

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I did read your post, and the quote in it which you "replied" to. Your post specifically indicated that there wouldn't be any blood loss because

You didn’t even read the sentence which you just quoted (below), it does not “specifically indicate that there wouldn't be any blood loss” it says there won’t be any blood loss till after the limb is off, assuming it’s done in one swing, that’s something very different.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

"Blood loss isn’t an issue since you won’t start bleeding till after your arm has been chopped off (assuming one swing)."

See it doesn’t say there won’t be any blood loss, it says there won’t be any blood loss till after your arm has been chopped off.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Captain-Captain was pointing out that living tissue tends to take more damage because it is still alive.

You’ve already made the distinction between damage and injury, and I didn’t disagree. Living tissue doesn’t take more damage, but it may take more injury (from shock, pain, blood loss etc). However “injury” doesn’t matter for dismemeberment, only damage counts (the fact that a living person will scream, pass-out and bleed to death while the zombie just stands there, has no effect on how difficult is to remove their limbs in the first place, only how they react to it).

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Sure, maybe you meant something different, but it seems you missed just as much from Captain-Captain's post as I missed from yours.

I doubt it, since I haven’t claimed that Captain-Captain “specifically” said anything that he didn’t say. I understood what he was saying and pointed that it was irrelevant for dismemberment. My point is very simple: a human may suffer more “injury” from dismemberment than a zombie but the amount of force required to separate limb from body should the same. The GURPS rules don’t seem to reflect this.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

The Basic set really does leave out many things important in creating other creatures which are drastically different from "human norm".

Except it's the other way round here, we get rules for creatures which are drastically different from "human norm" (unliving, diffuse, etc) but not the rules for things that are very close to human (living things).

[Luther]

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

So, the system simply recommends that anything that is homogenous have 4x HP and anything unliving have 2x HP and then piles on additional divisors as necessary.

Thank you for the explanation David.

One thing I'm still wrapping my head around, though. Do zombies (unliving) effectively have 2x HP? If so then it more difficult to sever their limb off, why?

(One possible explanation is that a 150 lbs person have HP 10 and a dismemberment threshold of 12. If he becomes a zombie, he will weight much less, because we are for the most part made of water, and zombies should not. So zombifying a 150 lbs person leave a 45 lbs corpse, with 4 x CubeRoot(45) = 14 HPs and a dismemberment threshold of 16. Still not perfect, and I may be totally off in my assumptions.)

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Luther

One thing I'm still wrapping my head around, though. Do zombies (unliving) effectively have 2x HP? If so then it more difficult to sever their limb off, why?

Not to mention that if something weighs 45 lbs, knockback against it should be much higher than against something weighing 150 lbs . . .

[Digganob]

I would say that the only thing I don't think quite meshes with the weight-to-HP formulas for unliving, etc. is knockback.

Perhaps a HR? Something like: For purposes of determining knockback, do not use the character's actual HP. Instead, figure HP based on weight and do not apply any multipliers.

A similar HR could be used for dismembering zombies (Though I think the fact that they are the product of a "magical effect" is enough to justify a wave of my hand).

Edit: A further thought: Robots and the like can vary in construction. Some may some may have reinforced arms with frail bodies, and others may be just the opposite. I think the rules as written work fine for an "average" unliving thing. But if you wanted to make your robot more or less vulnerable to dismemberment/crippling, you could buy Extra/Decreased HP (arms only), using Limited Defenses as a guide to the value of the limitation. And maybe rename the trait "Hard/Easy to Dismember".

[Polydamas]

Mind if I step in? I think I can answer your question, Luther.

Originally Posted by Luther

Thank you for the explanation David.

One thing I'm still wrapping my head around, though. Do zombies (unliving) effectively have 2x HP? If so then it more difficult to sever their limb off, why?

They have only the HP which they pay for, AFAIK. These should be about twice as many as their weight would suggest, with the extras having a +0% "Don't represent mass" modifier.

As far as I know this makes dismembering zombier harder than dismembering humans. I agree that this is wrong, but it is a case where the playable abstraction of HPs glosses over something trickier to model. HPs represent mass, structural toughness, and vulnerability to a given amount of damage . A homogeneous or unliving thing has extra HP for the third reason, but not for the first two, while dismembering is a function of the first and second.

Originally Posted by Luther

(One possible explanation is that a 150 lbs person have HP 10 and a dismemberment threshold of 12. If he becomes a zombie, he will weight much less, because we are for the most part made of water, and zombies should not. So zombifying a 150 lbs person leave a 45 lbs corpse, with 4 x CubeRoot(45) = 14 HPs and a dismemberment threshold of 16. Still not perfect, and I may be totally off in my assumptions.)

Zombies are traditionally quite ... moist, so weight should be higher than this IMHO. For some undead templates which I am working on I figured 20% weight for a skeleton, 70% for water, and 10% for dried flesh. Thus an undead with a preserved flesh body would have about 1.3 times its living HPs, and one with a skeletal body 1.1 times its living HPs.

[Akahige]

I'm sorry, but there's just too much information flying around in this thread for me to cope with. I agree with some examples and disagree with others (even some official ones), but I'm afraid I'm just too dumb to formulate a response capable of expressing my continued objections.

All I can say is that either HP are tied to mass, or they aren't. Pick one and stick with it, gol darnit. Furthermore, the various forms of Injury Tolerance should counter damage modifiers, not justify the addition of HP!

Lastly, I feel that DR isn't suitable for representing most objects' resistance to damage. That may be how it works when a shell penetrates a tank's armor, wreaking havoc on the vehicle's unarmored innards, but solid objects are uniform throughout -- not just Injury Tolerance for lack of vital organs -- so each and every cubic inch benefits from the strength of the material. Whether this be represented as extra HP or a damage divisor doesn't matter much, but simple DR doesn't cover it. Yes, case-hardened steel may have DR added to its surface, but the inner steel should be also be less vulnerable, based on the material toughness of steel.

That being said, if the x2 HP and x4 HP modifiers were intended to provide the extra toughness inherent in strong materials, then I just feel they're way too low. Instead, give all things 1x HP (based on 2x the cube root of a "typical" specimin's weight) and either IT:DR (based on the subject's average material toughness) or extra HP (base HP x material toughness), with optional DR for case-hardening.

P.S.: Thanks to everybody, especially NineDaysDead who made arguments that I hadn't even thought of.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Luther

Thank you for the explanation David.

One thing I'm still wrapping my head around, though. Do zombies (unliving) effectively have 2x HP? If so then it more difficult to sever their limb off, why?

According to GURPS Magic, Zombies have average HP 14. How that was determined I don't know. Could be based on the reduced weight and rot. The point is that for characters you can assign whatever HP you want. The 2x HP for unliving is a rule of thumb for inanimate objects, and merely a guideline for for racial templates, especially for characters.

As for dismemberment and Unliving: basically, I didn't think that part of the rule through. Kromm has already suggested one fix for dismemberment to ensure that bullets don't blow limbs off with abandon.

It might be quite logical to rule that Unliving entities only require 1x damage to sever limbs and that Homogenous can lose limbs at 1/2 damage. But that would add a fair bit of complexity, and it's really only applicable for the special case of zombies and skeletons - one can argue that most machine or homogenous limbs are indeed more solidly fixed than flesh. So you can also get around it by saying that, hey, zombies are magical and tougher. Or just assign them fewer HPs to start with on the "they're already rotten" theory.