[MH] Creating gold with RPM

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Which ironically is the exact opposite of the thing that tends to immediately appeal to a lot of people -- the existence of an apparently objective design system to determine costs given desired spell effects. On the surface, it looks like you can just turn a crank and have the game stats drop out of the tables. But even the number of kind of spell effects that are required components of the spell are subjective (see any past thread on "how to build X in RPM"). So that objectivity is really something of an illusion.

Mostly, I just find that creating blocks of gold is simply out of genre for Monster Hunters. Okay, so you can make money if you focus on that. But it's not D&D, so who cares? That's not part of the score. Your characters get a nice liberation from the mundane grind, so they can focus on their real job, which is preventing horrible monstrous supernatural things from overrunning the oblivious and incapable rest of humanity. Wasting time and energy on personal enrichment just means that somebody, somewhere, got overrun and consumed while you were wasting time conjuring your temporary shiny metal instead of kicking their monstrous butts. If the GM puts that cost in play, then the players will be much less inclined to run up their bank balance by selling Pocatello to the minions of Hell because they'd rather count the gold pieces stacked up in their basement. (Or else you've discovered you're playing quite a different game indeed.) Personal wealth goes in the "don't care" column for RPM mages. Otherwise, you can just nod and say "sure, you win; make up another character when you want to join the game with everyone else, and let me know how rich the new NPC got".

Thing is, wealth can be of great use to a monster hunter, whether you're Bruce Wayne or X-Com. Spending some time getting wealth is quite likely to produce a net improvement in monster-hunting ability.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anders

Or just ask the players "please don't do that, that's not the kind of campaign I want to run". Either works, really.

This option really needs to be used a lot more than it is. Lots and lots of stuff depends on genre convention, and can't be forced to work with in world justifications without distorting the rest of the setting into something equally at odds with the genre.

Otherwise, if you are willing to run that kind of campaign, charge any characters an ability like this for however many levels of Multimillionaire they are going to use it to acquire. If they haven't paid for Multimillionaire it fails to work *for no in game reason* until they come up with the points or agree to a compensating disadvantage to cover it.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by PK

This isn't an RPM problem, it's really a problem with any magic system that allows people to conjure stuff. In the standard GURPS Magic system, Earth to Stone (to create metal) can be a never-ending source of cash, even if the GM restricts it to "boring metals" like iron. Dungeon Fantasy tackled that issue by ruling that it and similar spells have a maximum duration of one day and cannot be maintained. You may want to consider doing the same thing with RPM spells. Remember, as the GM, you have the last word on whether a spell is legal.

Though as Ghostdancer notes, I don't see a problem with this. I see a ton of plot hooks and angry foes that they're creating for you. Also, if people know about magic in your setting, I'd imagine some vendors will cast a Detect Magic ritual on their tills at regular intervals; once they know something's up, it will be easy for them to figure out where all of this fool's gold is coming from. Enjoy the "free Wealth" for now kids, because it's going to more than pay for itself with all of the "free Enemies" on your tail . . .

Id paraphrase (or completely misquote and misuse) your advice from the Psionics books. Special powers are meant to break the plot.

Creating gold is the least of problems when you can read minds to get pass codes, mindcontrol celebrities to fall in love with you etc
Many of these things can be achieved with much less than 50 points.

I'm sure there's a most efficient way to get money from spells with almost zero risk. If gold doesn't work then sell teleportation. If that doesn't work sell magic bullets. If that doesn't work sell attribute boosting potions as workout or smart juice (In the real world an undetectable attribute booster would be potentially worth millions and even in a detectable world your profit is your degree of monopoly (Many would still pay hundreds of thousands just to give +5 a go)

At the end of the day of the day its a pact between the players and GM about what sort of game they want to play. The universe cancels out everything I do is not fun. I don't have to worry about money can be very fun and is in fact the baseline of a MH game. A GM could say yep you sell magic gold on the black marker between sessions, but after fences, cuts and payoffs you only get $X and that's Y points on your character sheet or you have to play it out and it will take dozens of sessions (and we are here to hunt monsters not run a merchant empire)

[Flyndaran]

Really if the PCs are the only mages on the planet, then they should be able to "game the system".
But if they aren't, then one wonders why other mages haven't done the same and even worse.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by lachimba

Id paraphrase (or completely misquote and misuse) your advice from the Psionics books. Special powers are meant to break the plot.

Creating gold is the least of problems when you can read minds to get pass codes, mindcontrol celebrities to fall in love with you etc
Many of these things can be achieved with much less than 50 points.

I'm sure there's a most efficient way to get money from spells with almost zero risk. If gold doesn't work then sell teleportation. If that doesn't work sell magic bullets. If that doesn't work sell attribute boosting potions as workout or smart juice (In the real world an undetectable attribute booster would be potentially worth millions and even in a detectable world your profit is your degree of monopoly (Many would still pay hundreds of thousands just to give +5 a go)

At the end of the day of the day its a pact between the players and GM about what sort of game they want to play. The universe cancels out everything I do is not fun. I don't have to worry about money can be very fun and is in fact the baseline of a MH game. A GM could say yep you sell magic gold on the black marker between sessions, but after fences, cuts and payoffs you only get $X and that's Y points on your character sheet or you have to play it out and it will take dozens of sessions (and we are here to hunt monsters not run a merchant empire)

Two majro things, one minor:

1. We already have one 'this comes with free unlimited wealth' advantage, and one advantage that represents 'you'll never be able to spend all of this' wealth- multimillionare and snatcher /w permanent; both are very expensive. Any attempt to get the effect of either of those advantages without paying at least equivalent points is highly suspect. Yes; advantages represent a certain amount of plot breaking, but inventive use of those advantages for plot breaking should compare to already established plot breaking advantages (IE- its not an unlimited wealth advantage unless it costs about as much as snatcher /w permanent)

2. RPM is inherently transitory, nothing it does is permanant, but it can create finished items (assuming you have the crafting skills to fill it out)- so you could very easily just create the items you ultimately would purchase with wealth, they will expire and vanish at some point, but will do so to you, instead of someone who will be quite upset with you later. If instead you just put an extreme duration on your created gold then, as you alluded, there are already existing rules for acquiring advantages in play. PC is now -50 points in debt until they can pay off there new multimillionaire advantage.

Minor point:
Mind control by itself is a 50 point advantage when it lasts minutes, you either need lots of increased duration or adding the conditioning enhancement to make it capable of long term seducing celebrities. Further you need high IQ/control skill to reliably make use of it. Mind reading/mind probe generally work as a pair (and come to 50 points when bought together, as well as needing the high IQ/control skills). In short; its more than 50 points to get reliable plot breaking capability along those lines. Further any setting that HAS those abilities, will have knowledge of those abilities, and countermeasures will exist (even if they are as simple as 'people are sometimes mind controlled, be aware'). The unusual background cost for having a completely unknown unique ability rapidly approaches infinity depending on its versatility (being the only person with an innate attack that does as much damage as a rifle in a setting that does have guns- that requires some unusual background, but probably not insurmountable if your concept demands it; being the only person to have mind control in a setting with no supernatural powers would require a staggering unusual background cost)

In theory, ignoring unusual background costs, you could get these sort of advantages below 50 points by stacking a lot of limitations on it, but this goes back to the GM/player 'contract'; If you have a lot of limitations on an advantage the GM should be asking how you intend to employ it; if the answer is effectively 'I'm going to use it as a cheap gateway to effectively get a more expensive advantage' the GM can and should say no.

[hal]

In reading all of the responses to the original poster's question, I'm seeing a basic rehashing of the old argument of "If you have wealth as a result of in game play, you must pay for it."

A GM who sets up a scenario where the players have their characters go head to head against a dragon and win its trove, does what whey they have the trove that is worth making each of them Multi-Millionaires apiece...

A) character the players character points for the players to keep their wealth

B) upgrade the point totals of the characters to now reflect they are multi-millionaires

C) Because the players don't have sufficient character points, takes their money away in a new scenario where instead of them going up against a dragon, they ARE the dragon and the NPC's are the new player characters stealing their treasure.

Item A ends up being a no-win scenario for the players. For example, a party of 6 player characters go up against the dragon. Two characters die outright, no chance of resurrection, one is blinded forever, and another is now permanently crippled (loss of weapon arm). Only two player characters remain hale and hearty. Any disadvantages gained in play do not get compensated per the rules, yet any advantages gained in play MUST be paid for in points? And people wonder why some think that GURPS as a game system stinks?

Item B is more or less the default in most game systems other than GURPS. In D&D, if a party takes on a Dragon and wins the treasure trove, they get to KEEP it (until the GM makes them pay money for leveling up or purchasing keeps or houses or potions etc).

Item C is sort of a variation of what happens when the Dwarves and the hobbit end up killing off Smaug. the three armies fight over who gets to keep the gold. But frankly, that's largely up to the GM to decide if he wants to run that kind of scenario. A GM who consistently does that is going to have players who rebel saying "This is never worth the effort, we fight and win, and then you take it all away."

In any game universe, the GM is GOD. And any GOD can smite any character on any given moment and destroy them with little or no effort. In the early 80's we had a name for GM's like that... "Killer DM". We also learned to avoid playing in those campaigns. A Dungeon Master who brags that no one ever gets past 2nd level in his game world is effectively saying "I'm going to kill anything that even gets close to 2nd level, so enjoy it."

In any event, my advice would be to go with the flow. The GM sets the stage (his campaign universe) and invites his players to set in motion events that transpire upon that stage. If a player does something clever and successful, then reward them for it. If they show up in town with fake gold, go for it. See where they take it. Then, let them interact with the NPC's who have their own lives to live. A man who accepts 3 lbs of gold in exchange for something portable for the players to transport away, is going to be unhappy when the gold disappears right? First, he'll suspect he was robbed. He doesn't automatically KNOW that he took magical gold right? So, let the players get away with it a couple of times. But...

It is a fact that strangers and wanderers get fingered for any unsolved crimes - it is the nature of the beast. So rightly or wrongly, the player characters may be accused of a crime of theft just because they happened to be wandering through the town. Those money changers? They will always assay the gold before they agree to its worth, and that takes time. It also requires that the player characters trust the assayers to give an accurate value right? Now, what if an NPC merchant has his people assay the gold at 70% its actual value and the player characters don't even bat an eye? He's going to wonder "Why isn't he acting like I would act in his shoes?" Then you have money changers who automatically charge a fee to exchange foreign currency for kingdom currency. If they want to make the adventure about money and easy access to money, then make the adventure about money and the things that happen regarding money. :)

Sooner or later, someone is going to mess up. Sooner or later, habitual criminals will get caught trying to make one more score than they should.

Just don't jump on it IMMEDIATELY. Being outraged at what the players are doing the first time it happens is bogus. Letting them get into the habit of it over and over and THEN hitting them with a situation when their guard is down, is DELICIOUS.

:)

[nerdofdarkness]

Originally Posted by starslayer

2. RPM is inherently transitory, nothing it does is permanant, .

Okay, in the absolute, literal sense, even if the spell lasts 100 years, it's technically transitory. I can't object to that.

In practical terms RPM magic can certainly be permanent enough to last just as long as the campaign.

Unless my reading comprehension has failed me again.

RPM allows a caster to make a spell that lasts for (e.g.) nine years.

(I know page 49 reminds us that the GM has the final say, not the rulebook. Assume for a moment that the GM goes with rules-as-written.)

Suppose you have a campaign that it going to last no more than a few years of game time.

Any spell with a duration of nine years that doesn't get canceled will still be in effect at the end of the campaign.

The energy cost for nine years is nine+21=30. (Page 18, RPM)

Suppose you want to make a Ghost Shirt (page 43, RPM) spell with a nine-year duration instead of a 30-minute duration.

The cost previous was 45*3, with nine years it becomes 73*3.

That is 219 energy. That is doable. You might botch and get backlash, you might have a more powerful enemy come along and destroy your spell, but unless it gets dispelled, it ought to last nine years.

Take a more down-to-earth example: Glamor Glamour, also on page 43, RPM.

It normally takes 5 energy to last a few hours and has a total cost of 46*1.

To make the duration nine years, add 30 energy for duration instead of 5. The total cost is 71*1.

Unless I am failing to understand the rules, these spells and many like them can be made to last longer than the duration of a typical campaign.

I am a newbie, so maybe I don't understand the rules.

Edit:

I have not yet run or played in a game with Ritual Path Magic, but when I do recruit some players, I think I am going to impose some definite house-ruled limits until both the players and I have had some practice with the system.

E.g. No durations longer than one week.

Edit 2:

Or I could just limit starting characters to 150 character points. That would limit their starting builds.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by nerdofdarkness

Okay, in the absolute, literal sense, even if the spell lasts 100 years, it's technically transitory. I can't object to that.

In practical terms RPM magic can certainly be permanent enough to last just as long as the campaign.

Unless my reading comprehension has failed me again.

RPM allows a caster to make a spell that lasts for (e.g.) nine years.

(I know page 49 reminds us that the GM has the final say, not the rulebook. Assume for a moment that the GM goes with rules-as-written.)

Suppose you have a campaign that it going to last no more than a few years of game time.

Any spell with a duration of nine years that doesn't get canceled will still be in effect at the end of the campaign.

The energy cost for nine years is nine+21=30. (Page 18, RPM)

Suppose you want to make a Ghost Shirt (page 43, RPM) spell with a nine-year duration instead of a 30-minute duration.

The cost previous was 45*3, with nine years it becomes 73*3.

That is 219 energy. That is doable. You might botch and get backlash, you might have a more powerful enemy come along and destroy your spell, but unless it gets dispelled, it ought to last nine years.

Take a more down-to-earth example: Glamor Glamour, also on page 43, RPM.

It normally takes 5 energy to last a few hours and has a total cost of 46*1.

To make the duration nine years, add 30 energy for duration instead of 5. The total cost is 71*1.

Unless I am failing to understand the rules, these spells and many like them can be made to last longer than the duration of a typical campaign.

I am a newbie, so maybe I don't understand the rules.

Edit:

I have not yet run or played in a game with Ritual Path Magic, but when I do recruit some players, I think I am going to impose some definite house-ruled limits until both the players and I have had some practice with the system.

E.g. No durations longer than one week.

Edit 2:

Or I could just limit starting characters to 150 character points. That would limit their starting builds.

One important thing to remember is that if supernatural advantages exist the players are NOT the only ones with those advantages, or at least aren't the only ones with knowledge of those advantages. I can't remember if it was Kromm or RPK who first said it but it's something I take to heart- the cost of the unusual background for an ability that has no defense, no one knows about it, and you are the only one who has it is infinite; basically unless a substantial unusual background cost has been paid assume;
1. There are defenses against any ability (even if that defense may be 'strike first')
2. Other people are aware of it.
3. Other people have it.

There are several implications from the impermanence of RPM magic:
1. it is vulnerable to being dispelled. It does not matter how many years the gold you created lasts if once it touches the magic-suspending stone (or other device), (installed in every bank and possessed by every major vendor) it vanishes, reacts, or is otherwise detected. Some of the 'built in' limitation on RPM is that it can be countered, it can be detected, and there are opposed forces to its existence.

2. This is not to say that, with proper planning, creating wealth can't be the solution to a problem. The only issue is if the player goes out of there way to figure out a way around this and insists on keeping their ill gotten gains, rather than allowing them to vanish in plot-created devices. The answer, charge them for their new multi-millionare advantage.

Example: Steve the magnificent needs to get past a guard to a high ranking executive who is actually a dragon in order to get the mcguffin and save the world. They do some research on the guard and find out that he only has the job because he has a sick mother who needs expensive medical care. Steve uses magic to create wealth. Knowing that there are elaborate countermeasures by the highest of society to protect against exactly this scenario Steve creates high value normal items and sets up a company to sell them. No one buying the devices cares or knows that their 'Goomba; house maintaianiance robot' is actually a magical creation that will vanish in 25 years. Using the profits form the company Steve pays off the guard, gets the mcguffin and saves the world. One of the following happens at the end;

1. The dragon's company crashes Steve's stocks and the money vanishes at the end of the quest. (or something else goes wrong- IRS audit under assumption of using illegals, since no one can track the production of the groomba).
2. Steve decides he likes being mega-wealthy and takes a 50 point debt for being a multi-millionare, which he will pay off with earned EXP while his compatriots continue to grown in other ways.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by starslayer

No one buying the devices cares or knows that their 'Goomba; house maintaianiance robot' is actually a magical creation that will vanish in 25 years.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell golems with 25 year lifespans openly. After all, in the modern world we willingly buy electronics with lifespans on the order of the 3 years.

In fact, this would probably be legal if the sale was described as a lease.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell golems with 25 year lifespans openly. After all, in the modern world we willingly buy electronics with lifespans on the order of the 3 years.

In fact, this would probably be legal if the sale was described as a lease.

I was operating on the assumption of a secret magic world; ala monster hunters.

But you are right, in an open magic world; 'This enchanted house cleaning golem will last 25 years' as part of the terms of sale would be perfectly applicable.