Minimum TL for a self-sufficient Vault City or equivalent bunker?

[SonofJohn]

I once cooked a version of Boris and Akardi Strugatzkys the Experiment, were some alien etenitys transplanted humans from all over the 20 century in a underground city under a giant light bulb sun. Another inspirations were some citys under giant nuclear street light from through the gates of the silver key.

One of my main inspiration for social cultural flavour was Contested Ground Studios A/state. In my setting wich was a giant cave with an eletrical sun powered by nuclea energy the tl was 6 + 1. My assumption was that the Agri/Hydroculture would produce enough oxygen as an by product. The Rice/Fish hydroculture provided the main amount of food, suplemented by funghi and algea. Ducks, dogs and rats provide the main meat dishes and leather sources.

There was a scientist elite maintaining the sun reactor wich is basicly self sufficient, the great turn at the campaign was realising that there was actually no maintance needed and the sun warders simply scammed everybody.

You may also like to watch city of ember too, even if the movie its self is not this good.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Doesn't help here. There's really no way to avoid economies of scale on tech advancement, even if you avoid it on manufacturing, unless you have no communication, in which case the likely outcome is tech not advancing at all.

Judging by the numbers on Space 180, I need a population of 20 million for TL6, and hope that the divergent tech path with a focus on self-reliance, ease of manufacture, and compensation for low population, will allow minimization of the number of people needed to raise it tl TL6+2 or +3 (in some areas). That's . . . huge. At this point a single abandoned mine won't do - it'll need a network of mines discarded throughout the ages, perhaps ones that were also used as a defensive tunnel network by some empire or the like . . .

OR, I have to postulate really divergent tech, with huge advances in artificial ecology and city planning in exchange for huge delays in transportation etc. Or postulate a significant minority of very limited Gadgeteers or other talented inventors (I guess having a notable fraction of population being Sirkin might help).

I'm just trying to achieve this thing with minimal handwaving (though I understand some handwaving OR a large divergence from the human tech path is required).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Genesis

There'll certainly be redundancy, but things always break down, and someone's got to fix them or replace them. Is the technology the city was buried with indefatigable? If not, improvements on those designs will be valuable to the city directly - unlike early, speculative, biochem research.

Biochem might actually be secondary (except perflubron-equivalent - see below), with the primary being Bioengineering (or whatever skill is linked with the use/invention of Growth Tanks/Exowombs) will have to rise pretty high at some point (there are several incentives for research and invention in this area).

As a note, the whole setting will go along the Slow Gengineering (BIO33) development pathway (both in the Justicariate and beyond).

Originally Posted by Genesis

Chemical or environmental disasters are always good. Maybe extensive strip mining released lethal concentrations of heavy metals into the only major source of ground water for hundreds of miles (possible in an inland setting with one major river system). Or maybe a particularly aggressive war resulted in purposeful poisoning of the land - the conquering armies burned fields and salted the earth (or the TL6 equivalent). Maybe there was a biological catastrophe like a plague that left persistent, infectious debris behind. Just because there aren't nukes doesn't mean there isn't radioactivity - maybe mining for some other metal has resulted in widespread radioactive contamination. The land might appear to be dying, and the people might have no idea why, or what to do about it. It might not be immediately clear how far the damage extends, or how long it'll last, without research into radioactive materials that might not have happened.

How about a volcano covering the surface of a large landscape with a thick layer of ash?

[SonofJohn]

Your aiming for some Hard-SF version of Paranoia?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by SonofJohn

Your aiming for some Hard-SF version of Paranoia?

Of course not! Friend Computer is your friend!

More seriously, the 'Hard-SF' part is weak - there are some TL^ bits here and there, comparable to B5 or Mass Effect in number and effect. But even without them, the amount of divergent tech means that someone somewhere will scream 'TL^!'.

As for Paranoia, not at all. The Justicariate (in its third age, that is) is not a dystopia.

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

How about a volcano covering the surface of a large landscape with a thick layer of ash?

If a super volcano erupts, it could blanket an entire continent from coast to coast in thick (dozens of feet) layers of ash and plunge the world into twilight. If you want a reason for them to never go outside, several hundred feet of ash and rock on top of the exit is a pretty good reason.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

If a super volcano erupts, it could blanket an entire continent from coast to coast in thick (dozens of feet) layers of ash and plunge the world into twilight. If you want a reason for them to never go outside, several hundred feet of ash and rock on top of the exit is a pretty good reason.

I've been thinking about this - it's true a volcano could render whole continents pretty much uninhabitable (if it's the size of, say, the Yellowstone caldera - the ash from the last eruption can be found under the soil of Washington DC). The trouble is there's still precious little reason to burrow in, I think. If global communications exist in any real sense (and they certainly do by TL6), then the would-be burrowers will know that their disaster is local. Why dig a brand new city-state when you could move somewhere else? There'd have to be a good reason. Unless the city were built entirely before the disaster, in which case you have to wonder why the builders didn't include a radio in their emergency city - why would you stay once you realize it's just the one continent blanketed?

It seems, Vicky_Molokh, that there's a certain social engineering element to your buried city's beginning. That's certainly a pretty good excuse for isolation, rather than exodus. But you have to make sure all the common folk believe that the whole world is uninhabitable, or many people will likely object to being cooped up for the rest of their lives. Depending on how big you make this whole place, of course. If you're talking room for 20 million people this might be less of a sticking point...

You also mentioned a Sirkin population in your city - this is a great explanation for faster-than-normal tech advancement with fewer-than-normal people. Keep in mind, however, that there will be a really hard carrying capacity for Sirkin population given a limited number of humans (I was thinking more about this population biology too, since the last thread went sort of dead). Too many Sirkin and you'll start getting fewer and fewer humans born - I suspect that sustainable Sirkin population will have a pretty low ceiling, especially in a limited human population. Just a thought...

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Genesis

I've been thinking about this - it's true a volcano could render whole continents pretty much uninhabitable (if it's the size of, say, the Yellowstone caldera - the ash from the last eruption can be found under the soil of Washington DC).

I think the good thing about a volcano is that it is possible to make it rather local or global as the history demands (given proper volcano size, intensity and climate adjustment). Though perhaps in the end there will be better options.

Originally Posted by Genesis

The trouble is there's still precious little reason to burrow in, I think. If global communications exist in any real sense (and they certainly do by TL6), then the would-be burrowers will know that their disaster is local. Why dig a brand new city-state when you could move somewhere else?

The question is, how global. Given that before the disaster the land wasn't exactly a friendly place in political terms, perhaps some extent of isolationism could be justified.

Here's how I see it: the disaster was predicted in time for the leaders (the ones who were informed, at least) to do something about it, and some of them found that if they go along the lines of such a project, they may get justification to tighten their grip on the population even more. Perhaps the scale of the disaster was overestimated, so the leaders thought the whole world will perish. So what they did is promised their peoples salvation if they work hard enough - the idea was to create a safe place down below. The catch was, of course, that survival in such tight circumstances required maintenance of an even more authoritarian regime. Basically, the classical gambit of offering some security in exchange for giving away liberty.

How's that?

Originally Posted by Genesis

There'd have to be a good reason. Unless the city were built entirely before the disaster, in which case you have to wonder why the builders didn't include a radio in their emergency city - why would you stay once you realize it's just the one continent blanketed?

Well, Radio is listed as TL6, and I don't think it had continental range immediately upon invention.

Originally Posted by Genesis

It seems, Vicky_Molokh, that there's a certain social engineering element to your buried city's beginning. That's certainly a pretty good excuse for isolation, rather than exodus. But you have to make sure all the common folk believe that the whole world is uninhabitable, or many people will likely object to being cooped up for the rest of their lives. Depending on how big you make this whole place, of course. If you're talking room for 20 million people this might be less of a sticking point...

Yeah, the idea is that between the picking of the most loyal citizens, the highly controlled society, the shock of 'apocalypse', and some possibilities opened by the existence of Friend Computer (made possible at TL6 due to early discovery and appropriate of the largest Mnemocrystal), social engineering was made actually possible.

I'm trying to condense 3 generations into 60 years, but I think it's reasonable to assume somewhat reduced lifespans within the city. The dominant culture of the pre-disaster locale did not have much respect of the elderly either.

Gen 1: people have have seen or at least known the world before the disaster. Highly loyal, and somewhat easily manipulated, but still with a human-like mentality and creativity. The Top 200 technically belonged to this generation.

Gen 2:
The results of the highly authoritarian social engineering experiment. Frighteningly loyal and efficient, but also uncreative and indecisive. A significant minority would qualify for Slave Mentality, and the majority tended to think of themselves not as of individuals, but rather as parts of the city, putting them on the edge of self-awareness. Roughly at the middle of Gen2, the last of the Top 200 died, and Friend Computer took over. FC (proper name pending, but I'm tempted to use 'Progenitor' for a lack of a better ideas, as a homage to the computer in the original Justicariate) informs the remaining Gen1 and the more creative Gen2 representatives that such a society is unsustainable, and a new social structure must be engineered within the generation. The sociotechnicians get to work.

Gen 3:
Sapience reinvented. Still very conformist in the important things, yet highly tolerant and open-minded in others. Efficient and creative, but also curious and even somewhat naïve. It is these people who decided to start reconnaissance of the surface eventually.

Originally Posted by Genesis

You also mentioned a Sirkin population in your city - this is a great explanation for faster-than-normal tech advancement with fewer-than-normal people. Keep in mind, however, that there will be a really hard carrying capacity for Sirkin population given a limited number of humans (I was thinking more about this population biology too, since the last thread went sort of dead). Too many Sirkin and you'll start getting fewer and fewer humans born - I suspect that sustainable Sirkin population will have a pretty low ceiling, especially in a limited human population. Just a thought...

Well, during Gen1 (when it is not very urgent yet), and especially Gen2 (when the problem might arise), creation of breeding programs seems doable (remember, it was a nasty 1984ish dictatorship during Gen1/Gen2). And I'm interested in putting the invention of the exowomb into the Gen3 era (preferably the first 5 years of Gen3, no later, i.e. no less than 15 years before the opening of the city).

If there are new ideas specific to the Sirkin biology and reproductive strategies, then there's no harm in posting them there - to the contrary. I still have to get my hands on writing down the phases that Sirkin gametes go through (probably simple, but gotta make it done some day).

[dcarson]

If the area being devastated is a major food exporter the loss would make refugees a major threat to areas that already are having food shortages from the loss of the imports and local lower productivity from the volcano effects. So planning on finding a way to survive locally instead of having to having to hope for charity or fighting for a place could make sense.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm just trying to achieve this thing with minimal handwaving (though I understand some handwaving OR a large divergence from the human tech path is required).

The easiest option is to not have significant tech advancement in the buried city at all (probably completion of some stuff that was already basically understood before going underground); just bump the TL before it went underground, and make sure that the disaster, whatever it was, disproportionately hit whatever higher TL society they came from.