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Old 12-14-2014, 12:48 PM   #111
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
"Kromm View Post
The movement portion of a maneuver can occur before, during, or after the maneuver's other actions. This is explicit for maneuvers that permit a step:"
OK that for me clears that one up
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Old 12-14-2014, 12:49 PM   #112
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
But the problem the target is frozen in place before that happens. That successful is not a justification for why previously the target could not turn while all this happened
Well, before that - much depends on when it is legal to turn. I thought it is as part of a step or as a step.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I don't know is it a house rule, Pg365 just says role against melee skill and that you have to have been able to hit the target. That pretty clearly implies to me that you'd have to use the melee skill you could have hit your target with. This is rarely ever going to be just one skill, but some circumstances will limit you choices (unarmed at reach 1 for instance) just as they do when actually attacking.

either way this one doesn't strike me as any more fiddly than having the option to attack with more than one skill/tech.

However there is no way I'd ever let people feint up to half move, life would just be one long successions of feints 5 yards apart with no danger of being attacked until someone gets a really good roll, and them bam AoA.
Side note: the recommendation to only roll the Feint when the benefits of it are about to be enjoyed is a good one. It gets rid of rolls that are irrelevant (e.g. when you Feint but never get the opportunity to attack), and gets rid of metagame knowledge.

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Ah OK, I see what your saying about preparative action, but I'd argue there's big difference in effective range between looking at someone and pretending to attack them (or fake them out etc)
I actually am not quite sure why Evaluate works based on Move range and not e.g. half Per.
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Old 12-14-2014, 12:52 PM   #113
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I actually am not quite sure why Evaluate works based on Move range and not e.g. half Per.
I think that's just a matter of needing to be within range to Move and Attack.
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Old 12-14-2014, 12:57 PM   #114
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, before that - much depends on when it is legal to turn. I thought it is as part of a step or as a step.
Cool, And TBF I could see your reading (I was more commenting on it being a bit of loop hole that was being abused here).

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Side note: the recommendation to only roll the Feint when the benefits of it are about to be enjoyed is a good one. It gets rid of rolls that are irrelevant (e.g. when you Feint but never get the opportunity to attack), and gets rid of metagame knowledge.
That's true.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I actually am not quite sure why Evaluate works based on Move range and not e.g. half Per.
Me neither
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Old 12-14-2014, 01:03 PM   #115
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yes only that about exchanging an attack for a feint, you can say I'm doing a AoA(Double) the first being a Committed attack, the second is a Defensive one
I'm don't think it's legal to mix it like that. A Feint is a type of Attack as well as a type of Manoeuvre; a CA or DA are types of Manoeuvres only. Now, Telegraphic Attack is another matter, but there's no such thing as a Telegraphic Feint.

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Ah sorry I meant a feint that was based off a defensive attack (was thinking about attack types I forgot that there's already such a thing a defensive feint).
Ah. Certainly a serious consideration. I thought that Defensive-Attack Feints either get the penalty equivalent to the technique conversion between damage and skill in the Technique Design, or provides a bonus to resistance. Turns out there's no such note there. Weird.
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Old 12-14-2014, 01:28 PM   #116
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

You may freely pile on attack options on to the different attacks that are part of the all out attack ( double). You may not stack maneuvers on top of maneuvers.
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Old 12-14-2014, 02:59 PM   #117
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
This is an interesting note:
AFAIK facing changes are done as part of a Step. And I thought you generally agreed that the Wait-Feint-Step-Step was a legit tactic between the blogs of you and MLangsdorf?
I've entirely lost the point of the discussion here. Could you clarify what you're asking?

If you're talking about what I describe in this article, it's really more of Wait-Step and Feint-Defensive Sidestep-Step and Attack. It's a pretty straightforward reading of the rules, and the only thing that might be dubious is assuming that the attacker (ie, the guy not waiting) can't turn a hexside in response to the Step and Feint of the waiting guy. Whether that turn is prohibited could go either way.
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Old 12-14-2014, 03:06 PM   #118
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I've entirely lost the point of the discussion here. Could you clarify what you're asking?

If you're talking about what I describe in this article, it's really more of Wait-Step and Feint-Defensive Sidestep-Step and Attack. It's a pretty straightforward reading of the rules, and the only thing that might be dubious is assuming that the attacker (ie, the guy not waiting) can't turn a hexside in response to the Step and Feint of the waiting guy. Whether that turn is prohibited could go either way.
That doubt is precisely where one of the branches of discussion ended up.

The difference from your article is the idea of using CA or AoA instead of a regular Attack, foregoing the Sideslip (and possible all defences altogether) in favour of getting to move more hexes 'normally'.
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Old 12-14-2014, 04:52 PM   #119
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Taken slightly out of context, but relevant for discussion of Feint variants:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Normally, feints are treated as special attacks that deplete defenses rather than HP. They are otherwise subject to the rules for attacks. That said, the purpose of Multi-Strike is to charge characters for using a powerful weapon to cause harm repeatedly rather than using a less-powerful weapon for some attacks; that's strictly an issue for attacks, not feints. Thus, I'd endorse a rule that said that feints might include footwork, head fakes, etc. instead of using limbs or weapons at all. It would be necessary to state that this is a new clarification, of course.
Of course this is an endorsement, not a holy and canonical thing. ^_^
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Old 12-14-2014, 05:56 PM   #120
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Taken slightly out of context, but relevant for discussion of Feint variants:
Of course this is an endorsement, not a holy and canonical thing. ^_^
For what it's worth, this is true for feinting IRL too.

Stomps are really good for capturing a fighter's attention and prompting them to anticipate movement that stomper never has to actually commit to.
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