Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2021, 11:06 PM   #1
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Hey, I'm looking for some feedback on a Warhammer 40,000 handbook that I'm writing. If anybody with significant experience with running games in a high power, scifi setting, or with significant experience in Warhammer 40,000 in general, or with a strong technical understanding GURPS mechanics, design choices, and statistics is here, your help would be greatly appreciated. If anybody was looking to run a game in Warhammer 40,000 and is willing to playtest/run with the handbook, that would also be greatly appreciated.

Enclosed below is a public release preview of ~60% of the handbook's current scope in an alpha-beta state. If you are interested/want to help, please either leave a comment in the thread or contact me on Discord (Fennefell#4034).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16WD...ew?usp=sharing

PLEASE READ BEFORE PROVIDING FEEDBACK

1. Please ensure that you have read and understood the relevant section.

2. Please take a few moments to think of the relevant design choices made about that section. Internal balance and FEELING like Warhammer 40,000 is the most important design factor; no weapon should dominate, each should fit their roles, and so on. Expanding the GM design space and maximizing fun is the next most important, followed by balance with other GURPS things, followed by adherence to Warhammer 40,000 lore. If you make an argument entirely based off lore, it's likely that it will not be useful feedback.

3. Please understand that I've been working on this PDF for a while and have considered a lot of rules and different ways to design things. If you see something and think "You should do x instead, that's obvious", please take a moment to consider I've likely already thought of that, and try to understand the design choices behind it, as per step 2.

4. When providing feedback, please provide constructive feedback. If you think something needs to be changed, please provide a rationale about why, keeping design choices in mind. If possible, give a proof-of-concept of the replacement, and why this proof-of-concept would be better. I likely will not consider feedback of the form "I don't like x. You should do y instead" with no other backing. Instead, try wording it "I think x has problem A. If you instead used y, you could solve problem A within your design choices. Here is an example of that.".

5. Please do not send me angry messages on Discord if I don't take your feedback.

Last edited by Fennefell; 03-09-2021 at 05:39 PM.
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 10:51 AM   #2
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Thanks to the people who contacted me to give feedback on my Warhammer 40,000 handbook. If you want to give feedback for what the handbook is, or in future want to use parts before it's released, please contact me. Otherwise, enclosed below is a public release preview of ~60% of the handbook's current scope in an alpha-beta state.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/148k...ew?usp=sharing
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 04:00 PM   #3
MrFix
 
MrFix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

I found it of dubious need to have a separate Legality Class for Astartes equipment. Normally the rarity of items is appraised by the penalty to Merchant roll to purchase it, with LC indicating how illegal it is to hold it - meaning government will shoot at you for having certain stuff beyond your clearance.

Scout Marine equipment is certainly not LC4 in normal understanding, which adds confusion, and it doesn't really help with figuring out how to purchase 'rare' gear.

Ditto for Inquisition gear.

Legality to Money conversion is just weird, it has no reason to exist unless it is a flat tax on owning items of this legality.

In short, I'd advise against using Legality Class as a stand in for item rarity, and advise against having multiple different types of legality classes that are seldom about legality and do not really interact with each other. Instead, look into Merchant skill.

In equipment section, Laser weapons have no business running off of Guns skill instead of Beam Weapons. Giving Lasguns (2) AD seems weird when Dark Heresy equalized Autogun and Lasgun damage, with both having 0 pen and 1d10+3 damage die.
__________________
Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit
MrFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 04:21 PM   #4
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I found it of dubious need to have a separate Legality Class for Astartes equipment. Normally the rarity of items is appraised by the penalty to Merchant roll to purchase it, with LC indicating how illegal it is to hold it - meaning government will shoot at you for having certain stuff beyond your clearance.

Scout Marine equipment is certainly not LC4 in normal understanding, which adds confusion, and it doesn't really help with figuring out how to purchase 'rare' gear.

Ditto for Inquisition gear.

Legality to Money conversion is just weird, it has no reason to exist unless it is a flat tax on owning items of this legality.

In short, I'd advise against using Legality Class as a stand in for item rarity, and advise against having multiple different types of legality classes that are seldom about legality and do not really interact with each other. Instead, look into Merchant skill.

In equipment section, Laser weapons have no business running off of Guns skill instead of Beam Weapons. Giving Lasguns (2) AD seems weird when Dark Heresy equalized Autogun and Lasgun damage, with both having 0 pen and 1d10+3 damage die.
Legality class is meant to represent a conjunction of faction (General, Astartes, Inquisition, etc.) and rarity within that factioann. The "General" subclass maps to the standard LC-4 - LC-0; the other's do not. As noted on page 6 and 7, the other factions map to between LC-2 and LC-0, depending on the item. The standard LC system is not sufficient for the needs in this case, as the granularity is not sufficient. Please reread page 6-7 to understand the exact mappings.

Similarly, the legality to money conversion is not a flat tax, nor is it meant to be a conversion but rather guidelines. Wealth is not in scope of the book, and abstract wealth is meant to be used. It's reason to exist is to provide guidelines on cost for items based off legality, as both are linked in Warhammer 40,000. The legality classes are about legality, and do interact with each other; please reread the specific section for each legality class to see their relative interactions and specific legality. They also act as a guideline for the cost of items. It is highly unclear to me how the Merchant skill would aid in this.

As per the lasgun, it acts as a Gun because it, for all purposes, a Gun (with the slight exception of bullet drop); a person with Guns who picked up a lasgun would be able to use it with familiarity penalties, not as a default. Beam weapons is reserved for weaponry that has significant differences from Guns, such as the meltagun. I am not using Dark Heresy as a metric for anything for multiple reasons, the most relevant in this case being that I need to balance the handbook with the rest of GURPS. The handbook is meant to be read considering internal balance, balance within GURPS, and design considerations to maximize GM design space, with strict adherence to lore being one of the lowest priorities.
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 04:34 PM   #5
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

The Rank and Status system is really off. The Imperium of Man is a macrosociety, so Rank should range from 0 to 12. Beam weapons are radically different than conventional firearms, so they should not be part of the same skill.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 04:39 PM   #6
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The Rank and Status system is really off. The Imperium of Man is a macrosociety, so Rank should range from 0 to 12. Beam weapons are radically different than conventional firearms, so they should not be part of the same skill.
The rank system is currently only partially complete. Currently, the mapping between ranks is missing. However, the Imperium does not have cohesive ranks, and does not function as a macrosociety. Each Adeptus has it's own ranking structure, which may or may not interact with the ranking structure of another Adeptus.

I am not clear on what your issue with Status is.

Please provide what you would see 0-12 ranks as in a unified Imperium, and provide what advantage you would see over having a unified ranking system over having split ranks per Adeptus with mapping. Thank you.

EDIT TO YOUR EDIT: Please see last paragraph of post above yours for reference for las weapons. They quack like guns.

For reference: "As per the lasgun, it acts as a Gun because it, for all purposes, a Gun (with the slight exception of bullet drop); a person with Guns who picked up a lasgun would be able to use it with familiarity penalties, not as a default. Beam weapons is reserved for weaponry that has significant differences from Guns, such as the meltagun."
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 05:16 PM   #7
Andrew Hackard
Munchkin Line Editor
 
Andrew Hackard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The Rank and Status system is really off. The Imperium of Man is a macrosociety, so Rank should range from 0 to 12. Beam weapons are radically different than conventional firearms, so they should not be part of the same skill.
This would be a great comment for you to stop on this forum. We are asking you to look for positive discuss more often, not posting so much time being negative in posts you dislike (in fact, make it an actual rule -- don't posts about this or any other Warhammer posts).
__________________
Andrew Hackard, Munchkin Line Editor
If you have a question that isn't getting answered, we have a thread for that.

Let people like what they like. Don't be a gamer hater.

#PlayMunchkin on social media: Twitter || Facebook || Instagram || YouTube
Follow us on Kickstarter: Steve Jackson Games and Warehouse 23
Andrew Hackard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 09:18 PM   #8
MrFix
 
MrFix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

I really dont see why lasguns are firearms. There's already a default between Beam Weapons and Guns, and Lasgun has exactly two features that unite it and a gun - you align sights with target and engage the device to hit it, and a vibration motor to simulate recoil (which you can turn off i believe). GURPS in general treats all weapons that fire energy beams as... Beam Weapons.
__________________
Your level of GURPS proficiency:
Pedestrian: 3e vs 4e
Proficient: Early 4e vs Late 4e
Master: Kromm vs PK

GURPS: Shooting things for fun and profit
MrFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2021, 09:26 PM   #9
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I really dont see why lasguns are firearms. There's already a default between Beam Weapons and Guns, and Lasgun has exactly two features that unite it and a gun - you align sights with target and engage the device to hit it, and a vibration motor to simulate recoil (which you can turn off i believe). GURPS in general treats all weapons that fire energy beams as... Beam Weapons.
The only relevant question to me is whether a man used to an autogun picking up a lasgun, or vice-versa, would receive a -4 default penalty. The answer is no; operation is identical. It quacks like a gun. If you wish to run your own version of this and Guns vs Beam Weapons annoys you, or there is some specific pain point with other GURPS content, beam weapons, and lasgun in a specific game, the difference is relatively minimal and it can be changed.
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2021, 05:39 PM   #10
Fennefell
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Default Re: Request for Feedback on Warhammer 40,000 Handbook

Update: Preliminary statistics added for Navis Imperialis aircraft. Current aircrafts listed are total scope for aircraft, minus Adeptus Astartes aircraft.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16WD...ew?usp=sharing

Last edited by vicky_molokh; 03-10-2021 at 01:31 AM. Reason: No speculation about what may or may not be the site's technical and moderatory situation please.
Fennefell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.