Error in Fantasy werewolf

[maximara]

I stepped through Fantasy's wolf form and I am not sure where the [48] for the alternate form in the Human write up is coming from given we have -50% limitations.

Per GURPS power the formula is 15 (adjusted for limitations and enhancments) + 90% difference between two forms. This results in 15 (-50%) + 0.90* 25 or 30 points not the 48 we are given. Even if we ignore the -50% modifier entirely we only get 38

So just where is the 48 coming from?

[malloyd]

There's something weird about all the Alternate Forms in Fantasy. Look at the Behind the Curtain box at the top of p.110 and maybe it's clearer how this is being done. In the Werewolf case your "human" form is being treated as a template other than a normal human, having a total of -19 points (for the Compulsive Behavior and Unnatural Feature that will be superceded by being a wolf in the changed form). This makes the difference 25 minus -19 = 44. 44 * 0.9 = 40. Base Alternate Form is 15 -50% = 8, 40 +8 = 48.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

I stepped through Fantasy's wolf form and I am not sure where the [48] for the alternate form in the Human write up is coming from given we have -50% limitations.

Per GURPS power the formula is 15 (adjusted for limitations and enhancments) + 90% difference between two forms. This results in 15 (-50%) + 0.90* 25 or 30 points not the 48 we are given. Even if we ignore the -50% modifier entirely we only get 38

So just where is the 48 coming from?

*consults page 112 of GURPS Fantasy*

Subtracting 10% from 25 is 22.5, which we round down to 23...
Subtracting 50% from 15 is 7.5 which we round up to 8...
That totals 31 for me, seems only diff is you added the decimals before rounding up total cost, which is probably more accurate.

Perhaps the template was initially written as higher value but then amended to a smaller number and they forgot to adjust the value of Shapeshifting?

First to check if it adds up...

Attributes: 44-80=-36
Secondaery: +85
Advantages: 24+26+51=101
Disad: -20 -10 -95. ... -125
total... 186 - 161 ... yup works out to 25...

Let's assume the -50% on the 15 was originally there. 8 points...
48-8=40 for the difference. 40 is 90% of 44 rounded up.

The template would need to be 19 points more expensive for this to work out...

Werewolf was originally on pg 124 of 3e's Fantasy... but it (like Werebear and Wereeagle) only cost 15 points. Some anti-templaet aspects of it was just getting a fixed DX base though you could get a -1 or +1 if your original fell in certain ranges...

Originally Posted by malloyd

There's something weird about all the Alternate Forms in Fantasy. Look at the Behind the Curtain box at the top of p.110 and maybe it's clearer how this is being done.

In the Werewolf case your "human" form is being treated as a template other than a normal human, having a total of -19 points (for the Compulsive Behavior and Unnatural Feature that will be superceded by being a wolf in the changed form).

This makes the difference 25 minus -19 = 44. 44 * 0.9 = 40. Base Alternate Form is 15 -50% = 8, 40 +8 = 48.

That explains it I guess...

It does take a different approach from the lower-right of Powers 74. There's no "Minimum Duration: One Night" involved... and there's no "Unconscious Only" + "Uncontrollable Trigger" either, instead just a normal Trigger combined with the Compulsive Behavior as a separate trait.

Although the weird thing is... if you lose the compulsion to use Lycanthropy in your wolf form, you should in theory be able to change back...

Except as soon as you do, the compulsion re-asserts itself, and you're forced to use Lycanthropy again...

I'm picturing this human constantly shifting back and forth as he struggles to stop being a werewolf...

What probably stops that problem is low IQ / Bad Temper / Berserk. Even though the werewolf has no compulsion to turn into a werewolf anymore (so he could in theory change back freely) actually making that choice becomes difficulty because:

1) he has IQ 6 if he began with IQ 10... barely sapient. What sort of IQ would you need to understand WHY you should change back into human form?
2) if it's anything but Blissful, you're going to be so caught up in trying to attack stuff you won't even think about changing back

It may also be due to "Partial Amnesia" working both ways? "coming back to human form with only vague, troubled memories" implies you don't remember much of being a wolf while a man..

Perhaps the most solid memory you have is the psychological compulsion to do so once more?

So what if as a wolf, you don't remember much of being a man? So you may not even know you can change back...

If that were the case though, how do you choose to change back when the full moon actually ends? All I can figure is that "Trigger" condition ending (no more full moon) causes automatic reversion.

Normally you need to take 10 consecutive Concentrate maneuvers to shift form, but perhaps you replace that with 'Do Nothing' when a trigger expires?

The requirement of concentration normally means someone can interrupt your shapeshifting by breaking your concentration... so in a way a trigger can be a situational advantage if it allows you to continue reverting to your native form regardless of ability to concentrate.

Maybe to counterbalance that, someone who reverts without using Concentrates should count as "stunned" and be -4 defences?

It was actually WORSE than this in 3e Fantasy:

The change from human to beast form, or vice versa, takes 3 seconds.
During this time, the were can do nothing and take no active defense.

The 90% pricing on the template difference is under the precedent that B83 applies:

• If you are knocked out or killed, you immediately revert to your native form
  single, reasonably common external influence that can force you to return to your native form against your will.

That's why P75 "Once On, Stays On" shifts the 90% to 100% in addition to the enhancement cost...

I assume for the 2nd part that "the full moon ends" is probably that external influence?

Though I wonder... isn't that sort of like double-dipping to also get full points for a Trigger applying in both directions?

You normally get HALF price for a limitation on Shapeshifting that applies in one direction. F131 "Skinbound" explains that. If you halve gadget limitations that only apply in one shape, you should halve other stuff that only applies in one shape.

Basically if Trigger (Full Moon) is worth -40% (you need a full moon to change from one form to the other) then it should be -20% for "I need a full moon to change into a werewolf, but I do not need a full moon to change back to human form".

The "I change back to human form when there is no more full moon" is the built-in aspect of Shapeshifting it would seem, so there shouldn't be more points for getting the 2nd half of Trigger for that.

Plus it messes up the distinction between limitations applying to the 15 points (only affects how you transform) vs affecting you once you've transformed.

Thaumatology 212 is an example of that. If you want to use up FP while in the alternate form, you don't take "Costs Fatigue" on Alternate Form's 15 points, because that would use up FP only while transforming. Once you've finished the transformation, you're not "using" alternate form, so no more fatigue would be lost.

That's why T212 instead has you buy "Dependency: assuming my natural form" as part of your template (from where you calculate the 90% or 100% difference) instead.

P74 (top of middle column) says the SOLE exception to this is Affects Others, which actually makes the "Minimum Duration, One Night" stand out as odd. If modifiers to the 15 points affect the duration of SHAPESHIFTING (by default 10 seconds) then Minimum Duration doesn't really seem appropriate here. Seems like it would make more sense to define "when the night ends" as the built-in condition for reversion.

H62's Wolf-Man (ignore "Werewolf" preceding that, they're more like Selkies) uses "Accessibility: Only at night during full moon" instead of "Trigger: Full Moon". They're priced at the same value, TBH it's difficult to wrap my head around the difference between Accessibility and Trigger right now, so maybe someone else could take a stab (bite?) at it?

"Limited Use, Once per night" is also added here, resembling lower-right of P74 saying "Minimum Duration, One Night"...

I think i prefer H62's approach here to P74's because of how duration modifiers are meant to work with shapeshifting. How Horror's Wolf-Man gets locked into the shape for the night is I think, like F112, simply covered by roleplaying the template correctly.

In theory, nothing in H62 mechanically prevents you from reverting back to human form. If you do so, you're protected from becoming a werewolf for the rest of the night! So maybe if an ally mind-controls you or possesses you to make you do this, you can prevent the Wolf-Man from rampaging.

"Uncontrollable" is optional here. It's not part of the basic Horror template, so the basic Wolf-Man CHOOSES to shape-shift, he isn't compelled to do it against his will unless you deviate from the 'minimalist' version as H62 "Variations" discusses.

This version also doesn't have a silver vulnerability, it merely bypasses DR and impedes regeneration. Variations suggests you could take a vulnerability atop that.

Why in practise this would be hard though, is you have -2 to IQ, Bestial, Bloodlust and Gluttony. This means, even if in human form you think "I remember being a werewolf" (no Amnesia here!) and "I will change back before I hurt anybody!" once you're actually in that form, the lust for blood and desire to eat things combined with reduced wisdom makes it hard to simply change back. Basically it relies on good roleplaying: the character COULD change back, but he's limited by his low intelligence and his mental disadvantages, which tempt him into retaining wolf form.

It would be very easy to rationalize with why he should stay in wolf form longer. "Hey, I was able to resist my bloodlust, I'm in control!" After all... that form has Regeneration... what if he suffered an injury in human form? Regeneration is useful for getting back to 100% in his day-to-day life! He's just going to change for a couple seconds to get his HP back... then he'll TOTALLY shift back to human form. It's worth it, right?

Except it's not just regen... you have DR, you have HPT, you have claws, a ST boost, a DX/HT boost, a MOVE boost atop that... slightly better hearing/taste/smell (+3 per and +3 specifics offsets the -2 IQ for net +4) NIGHT vision... DISCRIMINATORY smell... ULTRAhearing... poison/disease are no worry, extreme temperatures don't bother you...

There's no mental compulsion "I can't change back" but good RP is basically: all that extra power is TEMPTING.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by malloyd

There's something weird about all the Alternate Forms in Fantasy. Look at the Behind the Curtain box at the top of p.110 and maybe it's clearer how this is being done. In the Werewolf case your "human" form is being treated as a template other than a normal human, having a total of -19 points (for the Compulsive Behavior and Unnatural Feature that will be superceded by being a wolf in the changed form). This makes the difference 25 minus -19 = 44. 44 * 0.9 = 40. Base Alternate Form is 15 -50% = 8, 40 +8 = 48.

Except per the Basic Set that is not how Alternate Form works:
"If you have a single Alternate Form, it costs 15 points for a racial template worth no more than your native racial template"

The Human racial template is [0] not some other number and treating it otherwise is sloppy and IMHO shows a total misunderstanding of what a "racial template" even is.

More over Werewolf should be a lens template not a racial one ala all the Universal Werewolf films. In other words meet Mr Elf Werewolf for 8 points thanks to him surviving an attack by Mr Talbot...who now looks like a pincushion but since they weren't silver arrows...Talbot's still alive and has something else to moan about other then turning into a murderous creature :-)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

Except per the Basic Set that is not how Alternate Form works:
"If you have a single Alternate Form, it costs 15 points for a racial template worth no more than your native racial template"

The Human racial template is [0] not some other number and treating it otherwise is sloppy and IMHO shows a total misunderstanding of what a "racial template" even is.

The basic idea is you need to pay for what you get.

I would use Kurt Connors as "The Lizard" from Spider-Man as a good example of this. He has "One Arm" in human form, but does NOT have it in his Lizard form. His arm regrows in his alternate form and vanishes once again when he reverts to human form.

Even though "One Arm" is not part of the baseline human template, Kurt would basically be a "One Armed Human" template from which he calculates the cost from.

Another approach would be to build "Not One Arm [20]" as a "counter" Advantage (PU8p6 like "No Deafness" or F134 "Not Mute") into the trait, but it ultimately doesn't make a difference in the point cost.

F112 "Wolf Form" does not assume someone who buys it has the -19 disadvantages (Compulsive/Unnatural) which need to be bought off, which is why it is not included.

Where I think this errs is the page doesn't elaborate how these 2 no longer apply, but we can pretty much figure it out, as malloyd did.

Originally Posted by maximara

Werewolf should be a lens template not a racial one ala all the Universal Werewolf films. In other words meet Mr Elf Werewolf for 8 points

Aren't lenses mostly for occupations? Seems this is sort of like having two racial templates stacking, like being an elf vampire or a dwarf lich.

I don't know that there's any functional difference between Shapeshifting (race) and Shapeshifting (lens). Either way we're talking about metatraits which are just a collection of traits, so it seems like just semantics.

If someone wanted to take Shapeshifting (Brave Warrior lens; Limited Use: once per day -60%; Takes Extra Time 2 -20%) [3] where all that happens is Daredevil [15] Fanatacism [-15] and basically they pay tree points to switch into that mode (taking 40 seconds, can only switch once per day) is there really a problem there?

This is an example of the reversion problem though: does one use per day include one pair of changing in BOTH directions, or just one? If not, then a reversion would basically count as a free bonus use!

Plus the whole 'need to concentrate to change back' being ignored. Concentration is interruptible so even if forced reversion FORCED you to concentrate, that could be stopped...

So would that just concentration-lock you (you keep concentrating indefinitely, they keep breaking your concentration, all you can do is try to active defend) as you fail to change back, or should changing back be a guarantee, but maybe come with some alternate requirement to concentration such as being stunned?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by maximara

The Human racial template is [0] not some other number and treating it otherwise is sloppy and IMHO shows a total misunderstanding of what a "racial template" even is.

Yes, but you aren't human. Your "human" form has these other traits on it. Technically I suppose you could rule you are required to have them, but never get any points for them (that is they are personal disadvantages that have a -100% limitation because you sometimes shift into a form that doesn't suffer from them), which means the "point value" of your human form won't actually reflect how crippled you are in it, or that you are required to have them but the "wolf" form must have Not Disadvantaged (these traits) on it (but then you've just moved which template isn't a proper "racial" one from the human to the wolf template).

It's a persistent problem with the pricing of Alternate Form. There simply is no way to price one fairly if you build the forms as separate templates or character sheets, and doing it where you build both forms on the same character sheet with all the negative stuff you have in one but not the other as Temporary Disadvantages, carefully checking to see if that gives you more discount than 80% of the actual disadvantage which is the limit for that would be a calculational nightmare. How you choose to "simplify" from that will naturally end up giving you different values for each "simplification".

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

The basic idea is you need to pay for what you get.

I would use Kurt Connors as "The Lizard" from Spider-Man as a good example of this. He has "One Arm" in human form, but does NOT have it in his Lizard form. His arm regrows in his alternate form and vanishes once again when he reverts to human form.

Even though "One Arm" is not part of the baseline human template, Kurt would basically be a "One Armed Human" template from which he calculates the cost from.

No, the cost would be figured from his racial template ie Human's [0]. No One Arm would be part of Kurt Connors version of Lizard meta-trait not part of the Alternate From itself. This is demonstrated by the Peter Parker of Spider-Gwen's reality becoming the lizard and the Spider-Island of Secret Wars (2015) where a good hunk of the people were either lizard-men, living vampires, variations of the the man spiders seen years ago, having wings ala Angel of the X-men, and a host of other people.

Originally Posted by Plane

Aren't lenses mostly for occupations? Seems this is sort of like having two racial templates stacking, like being an elf vampire or a dwarf lich..

The basic set gives that impression with its example but GURPS Fantasy calls the following Lenses (these are all, in fact, right after werewolf): Ancestral Spirit, Ghost, Lich (so a lich is a lens not a racial), and Wight.

The chapter after all this is in regards to Occupational Lenses.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by maximara

No, the cost would be figured from his racial template ie Human's [0]

But then how would you figure the cost of being One Armed only in the one form? You can't have Not One Armed on the Lizard template, that makes it non-racial. You can't have it just vanish when he shifts, racial templates don't change your personal disadvantages, you'd have to still be One Armed in lizard form.

Even if you were willing to live with turning into a one armed lizard - despite the fact this invalidates what really ought to be a perfectly good character concept, it's going to come up for any "personal" advantage or disadvantage that would conflict with the racial template of an alternate form. Either you are not allowed to have that trait ever (or at least can't claim points for it as a disadvantage in the one it's a problem for/lacks the advantage) or you are not allowed to have an Alternate Form.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by malloyd

But then how would you figure the cost of being One Armed only in the one form? You can't have Not One Armed on the Lizard template, that makes it non-racial. You can't have it just vanish when he shifts, racial templates don't change your personal disadvantages, you'd have to still be One Armed in lizard form.

You forgot that Kurt Connors' version of The Lizard is effectively a Split Personality didn't you? Also the whole purpose of Connors' formula was to regrow his lost arm (effectively a limited version of Regrowth)

Also The Lizard form in of itself is not a racial though he did use his formula to save the clones of his wife and son (cloning in the Marvel results in the clone having the memories of the original...somehow. I think it was explained in the Clone Saga but there is no way I an slugging though that abomination to check) from being destroyed but turning them into Lizard Men though there seems to be a few mental kinks to work out (his son is trying to eat a plate rather then the food on it).

Think of the character who over the years has accumulated more Alternate Forms and Split Personalities then anybody else: Bruce Banner. The Hulk has Regeneration (Extreme) and Regrowth ... Banner doesn't. IIRC there was one point where Banner lost his arm or leg, hulked out, the the limb back, but unlike Conners retained the regrown limb when he reverted to Bruce Banner.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by maximara

You forgot that Kurt Connors' version of The Lizard is effectively a Split Personality didn't you?.

I just considered it irrelevant. If it confuses you forget this specific example. Suppose I'm playing a 1 armed, 1 eyed Freyan (biologically indistinguishable from a human, so a 0 point template). I get bitten by a Were-Human, so half the time (rolled randomly) I turn into a human (a zero point template) with two arms and two eyes. How much does this cost?

I'm going to have to put "[not] One Armed, half the time" and "[not] One Eyed, half the time" *somewhere*, and if they can't be on either template (because they are racial), and it can't be personal traits (because the Werehuman racial template can't remove them), where do they go?

There are still solutions for any particular case (here for example I could use a meta-trait, which I would then have to figure out a fair cost for "not when in Human form" for, which isn't too hard for "half the time" but quickly gets a lot trickier for other transformation conditions) but there really are no good *general* ones, particularly not ones that are better than just ignoring the bit about pure racial templates and letting other stuff go on them when the GM thinks that's the best solution.