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Old 02-17-2020, 06:15 PM   #91
ericbsmith
 
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

As for where my "biases" come from, they come from the rules.

Judo does not mention punching, kicking, or striking in general in it's own description on p. B203.

Unarmed Combat on p. B370 divides unarmed combat skills into Striking and Grappling skills. Judo is on the Grappling list. Striking Skills are directed to the Weapons Table for stats.

Martial Arts p. 90 lists which attack type each of the six Unarmed Combat skills can be used for. Judo allows Grab, Grapple, Sweep, and Throw. Notably, it does *NOT* allow Punch, Kick, Elbow, or Knee; these latter four attacks are reserved for the three Striking Skills (the same ones listed on p. B370).

Every single Character Template that gives the option for Unarmed Combat skills offers one of the three Striking Skills and then one of the three Grappling skills, as outlined on p. B370. I know this because I've literally programmed several hundred character templates into GCA.

Under the heading Melee Weapons, p. B271, it states that weapons on the Weapons Table are grouped under the skill or skills that they can be used with. Notable here is that Punch and Teeth are *ALWAYS* used in Close Combat, because they have a Reach of C. If Judo was supposed to substitute for DX to strike in Close Combat there's *NO* reason to leave it off the list of allowable skills, because a Punch is always in Close Combat. It's omission suggests that it was never intended to be used to Punch.

The *ONLY* way you get to being able to Punch with Judo is by reading two rules on two different pages and then combine them in a way that is not explicitly mentioned.

Which is more likely, that Judo was left off of the Weapons Table on purpose, or that they accidentally forgot to mention that Judo can Punch in multiple pages across multiple books?
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 02-17-2020 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:32 PM   #92
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
That quote for Unarmed Combat is literally followed by a list of Striking Skills and Grappling Skills.
So what?

Quote:
Which list is Judo on?
The grappling list.

Quote:
Which is it not on?
The grappling list. The grappling list.
But that doesn't change the plain meaning of words elsewhere.


Quote:
That rule also directs you to the Weapons Table for stats for unarmed attacks.
Yep. At that point it's talking about skilled combat, not unskilled combat.

Did you read the post I was replying to?
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:35 PM   #93
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Those "significant" bits are just examples.
I don't know what you mean by "just" examples. As I have mentioned, they are examples the define the category Kromm means.


Quote:
And yes, I stripped them, because a plain language reading of what he wrote, free from the clutter of the examples, is that Judo can't be used for striking.
Based on that remark, I think you were right earlier when you felt our discussion was not making progress.

Cheers.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:55 PM   #94
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I don't know what you mean by "just" examples. As I have mentioned, they are examples the define the category Kromm means.
Yes, the category he defines is a when a "rule explicitly lists the allowed skills." He didn't put any restriction on it beyond that; you did.

The Weapon Table entries explicitly list the allowed skills. Unless you can come up with a concrete reason to exclude them, it seems that they are "like" the examples he listed, in that they are an "explicit list of allowed skills."
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:59 PM   #95
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Yes, the category he defines is a when a "rule explicitly lists the allowed skills." He didn't put any restriction on it beyond that; you did.

The Weapon Table entries explicitly list the allowed skills. Unless you can come up with a concrete reason to exclude them, it seems that they are "like" the examples he listed, in that they are an "explicit list of allowed skills."
I've already spoken to all those points, but you don't seem to read my remarks or acknowledge their content.

So, just to let you know, I won't be reading or replying to your comments on this subject further.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:07 PM   #96
ericbsmith
 
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I've already spoken to all those points, but you don't seem to read my remarks or acknowledge their content.
You don't, though. You assert that it's one way because you assert it. You have yet to provide one concrete reason why that assertion should be. You've merely asserted that it's your own belief that because Kromm quoted from one type of rule that means that he meant to exclude other types of rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Given that Kromm quoted specific phrases that appear under specific rules, it does not seem like he meant that to be extrapolated to other usages such as the listings in the weapons table(s).
You provide no reason why Kromm would have meant for the list to be exclusive and not inclusive of other types of listings. You merely assert that he didn't intend for it to be extrapolated and then the rest of your argument from there forward has rested on your assertion that Kromm meant something that he did not say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
So, just to let you know, I won't be reading or replying to your comments on this subject further.
That's fine. You're still wrong.
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 02-17-2020 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:58 PM   #97
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Judo is a striking skill

Closing thread and have asked the GURPS forum mods to take a look, because it has been reported multiple times.
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anti-talent, grappling, judo, martial arts, noncombatant, raw, striking

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