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Old 12-28-2018, 04:03 PM   #1
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

CARB for those who don't know is the California Air Resources Board, they keep the air in California breathable and free of smog.

Now given that the Steampunk British governments primary source of revenue was property taxes and being downwind of smoke spewing factory tends to result in lower property values (apparently even over 100 years after the factory is gone) I can see them being very interested in doing something about this.

So how effective could they be at finding ways around visible pollution? Now please note that I don't expect them to be very successful and I fully expect that things won't work out, like them legislating minimum property values, which would at least give the less fortunate nicer places to live, at least if they could afford them.
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
CARB for those who don't know is the California Air Resources Board, they keep the air in California breathable and free of smog.

Now given that the Steampunk British governments primary source of revenue was property taxes and being downwind of smoke spewing factory tends to result in lower property values (apparently even over 100 years after the factory is gone) I can see them being very interested in doing something about this.

So how effective could they be at finding ways around visible pollution? Now please note that I don't expect them to be very successful and I fully expect that things won't work out, like them legislating minimum property values, which would at least give the less fortunate nicer places to live, at least if they could afford them.
It's really fairly straightforward; you apply the law of nuisance. When I took business law, a long time ago, we learned that the law of nuisance used to be applied in West Virginia to prohibit mine owners from dumping wastes into rivers that supplied farms with water; then in the later nineteenth century the mine owners did some lobbying, and the state legislature decided that mining was in the public interest and the private interests of farm owners had to give way to the common good.

How much of nineteenth century pollution came from factories, and how much, at least in London, from the omnipresent burning of coal for heat in residences? The latter would probably be harder to do anything about; a factory is at least a big target.
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

we are going to need to hear more about your steampunk setting before answering.

In a strictly realistic setting steampunk is impossible- the power/weight, footprint, and total thrust is simply not there for steam driven technology to have gone much further than it did (ships and trains).

Most steampunk settings therefore introduce something that allows it to remain viable and/or superior to the ICE thus preventing that revolution from eclipsing steam.

If someone is to reduce smog hearing how they are making steam viable may be important.

IE- most steampunk settings have some magical device/element/technique which boils water, no coal burner required- in such a setting smog is not an issue- steam is ultimately quite clean, its the coal you had to burn to boil it that was the issue.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
CARB for those who don't know is the California Air Resources Board, they keep the air in California breathable and free of smog.

Now given that the Steampunk British governments primary source of revenue was property taxes and being downwind of smoke spewing factory tends to result in lower property values (apparently even over 100 years after the factory is gone) I can see them being very interested in doing something about this.

So how effective could they be at finding ways around visible pollution? Now please note that I don't expect them to be very successful and I fully expect that things won't work out, like them legislating minimum property values, which would at least give the less fortunate nicer places to live, at least if they could afford them.
Historically it took until the killer fog of 1952 for the British government to start taking regulatory action on the subject of air quality. It seems unlikely that a steampunk history would be any quicker off the mark although some steampunk settings luck out by having the thing that makes steam beat internal combustion is a technology for producing heat without burning coal.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

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Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
In a strictly realistic setting steampunk is impossible- the power/weight, footprint, and total thrust is simply not there for steam driven technology to have gone much further than it did (ships and trains).
That's not entirely true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car

There's no reason Zeppelins couldn't have been steam-powered, and there were steam-powered lighter-than-air and heavier than air craft that flew, experimentally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_aircraft

Quote:
IE- most steampunk settings have some magical device/element/technique which boils water, no coal burner required- in such a setting smog is not an issue- steam is ultimately quite clean, its the coal you had to burn to boil it that was the issue.
Steam does not require coal. Steampunk, on the other hand, generally seems to do so.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

As its steampunk fantastically tall chimneys might be the order of the day. Moving the coal smoke higher, serving as a dramatic location for action scenes and providing obstacles for airships to dodge.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
So how effective could they be at finding ways around visible pollution?
Are you looking for TL5+1 technological solutions to smog?
You might have neighbourhood air inspectors, armed with cloud colour index cards and smelling trumpets to determine whether they should fire up the precinct air curtain blowers.
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Old 12-28-2018, 10:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Historically it took until the killer fog of 1952 for the British government to start taking regulatory action on the subject of air quality. It seems unlikely that a steampunk history would be any quicker off the mark although some steampunk settings luck out by having the thing that makes steam beat internal combustion is a technology for producing heat without burning coal.
The flashpoint here isn't general livability but rather government revenues, something that governments tend to be rather protective of and when they people damaging them are unlikely to have much political power and is likely to be popular for other reasons, so something could happen. Whether or not that something is effective is another matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It's really fairly straightforward; you apply the law of nuisance. When I took business law, a long time ago, we learned that the law of nuisance used to be applied in West Virginia to prohibit mine owners from dumping wastes into rivers that supplied farms with water; then in the later nineteenth century the mine owners did some lobbying, and the state legislature decided that mining was in the public interest and the private interests of farm owners had to give way to the common good.
So a tax on coal? Or a tax on steam engine output?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
How much of nineteenth century pollution came from factories, and how much, at least in London, from the omnipresent burning of coal for heat in residences? The latter would probably be harder to do anything about; a factory is at least a big target.
What actually prompted this thread was a YouTube video I watched a few months ago (Sorry can't find it again) about how modern London's and other cities less desirable districts appear to date from the steam age (They don't line up with historical ones) and are downwind of major factory areas. These modern poor areas are both bigger and longer lasting (They actually seem to be permanent at this point) then traditional poor areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post
we are going to need to hear more about your steampunk setting before answering.

In a strictly realistic setting steampunk is impossible- the power/weight, footprint, and total thrust is simply not there for steam driven technology to have gone much further than it did (ships and trains).

Most steampunk settings therefore introduce something that allows it to remain viable and/or superior to the ICE thus preventing that revolution from eclipsing steam.

If someone is to reduce smog hearing how they are making steam viable may be important.

IE- most steampunk settings have some magical device/element/technique which boils water, no coal burner required- in such a setting smog is not an issue- steam is ultimately quite clean, its the coal you had to burn to boil it that was the issue.
This isn't exactly setting specific, but I'm thinking this would happen well before alternatives could become available, in fact it might be what results in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
That's not entirely true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car

There's no reason Zeppelins couldn't have been steam-powered, and there were steam-powered lighter-than-air and heavier than air craft that flew, experimentally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_aircraft

Steam does not require coal. Steampunk, on the other hand, generally seems to do so.
There are lots of solutions that a society could use to get around this problem.
  • You could require that steam engines be upgrade for better efficiency.
  • You could have a steam gird like New York does to deliver steam to places where it's needed while generating it far away.
  • You could burn something other then coal, like wood, as long as it's smoke is clear (Or reasonably so). Rape (Canola) is any interesting choice here given how close it is to Turnips.
  • You generate steam from nuclear fission. It likely won't be long before the downsides are discovered and some minimal regulation is imposed but still get nuclear mutants (More social unrest!) and if theory lags behind practice re-enrichment could be common place before the theory of nuclear weapons is developed.
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

...Or there are competing companies for the municipal Cleaner Airs Act tender, such as Wilkinson and Whitford Purifying Filtration Plants, whose neighbourhood extractor plants use the Foley process to chemically treat those toxic industrial emanations.

"Indeed, when the plant next to the park gets its fans turning it makes a frightful noise that upsets the parakeets, but I don't mind it so much. The colour of my whites on the line is definitely a shade brighter and the rich carbolic fragrance on the air is quite reassuring."
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is CARB Possible In A Stempunk Setting?

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Are you looking for TL5+1 technological solutions to smog?
You might have neighbourhood air inspectors, armed with cloud colour index cards and smelling trumpets to determine whether they should fire up the precinct air curtain blowers.
No, more like methods of reducing the amount produced. Please note that at first it will only apply to visible pollution, but should soon extend to smells.
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