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Old 03-08-2024, 07:18 AM   #1
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Question about two handed and Guige

it says that shieldwall perk removes the penalty to using shield.
question is does that count while using a guige and not holding it? as RAW
i don't see anything it's saying it's not? i'm thinking one could have a greatsword and a kite shield. kite shield gives 3+ block negating the penalty you get from using a guige.
so while it's still better to use it the shield one handed you get 0 from using this way.
what do you guys think?
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Old 03-08-2024, 07:45 AM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

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Originally Posted by King Leonidas View Post
it says that shieldwall perk removes the penalty to using shield.
question is does that count while using a guige and not holding it? as RAW
i don't see anything it's saying it's not? i'm thinking one could have a greatsword and a kite shield. kite shield gives 3+ block negating the penalty you get from using a guige.
so while it's still better to use it the shield one handed you get 0 from using this way.
what do you guys think?
I think "guige" is a fiddly bit added well after the Basic set and so not taken into consideration then.

The Shieldwall Perk dates to Martial arts while guige is from the later Low Tech book.

It's just my opinion but I would not allow a guige to be used with either the Shieldwall Perk or Swung weapons. With a Greatsword in your arms there's no way for a rope around your neck to keep your shield between you and your enemies. Guige is use is for less mobile and athletic styles (or a third arm maybe).

The guige's heyday was in the Classical period among spear users. For rpg fans who go b ack to Runequest and Glorantha, guige use in combat is a form of the Sun Temple's infamous "Two-handed Spear with Shield" technique.
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Old 03-08-2024, 09:12 AM   #3
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I think "guige" is a fiddly bit added well after the Basic set and so not taken into consideration then.

The Shieldwall Perk dates to Martial arts while guige is from the later Low Tech book.

It's just my opinion but I would not allow a guige to be used with either the Shieldwall Perk or Swung weapons. With a Greatsword in your arms there's no way for a rope around your neck to keep your shield between you and your enemies. Guige is use is for less mobile and athletic styles (or a third arm maybe).

The guige's heyday was in the Classical period among spear users. For rpg fans who go b ack to Runequest and Glorantha, guige use in combat is a form of the Sun Temple's infamous "Two-handed Spear with Shield" technique.
the Guige? i've seen Guige on falxmen in the classical period or ¨strapped¨ shield pretty much the same. and also with longsword fighting. and of course pikemen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spa6VBKRpW8
skalla.
shad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttJ8LdOQdSc
now i agree for what i talked about is a bit cinamatic. but if you add other rules like you cannot attack from that side i feel it's fine.
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Old 03-08-2024, 09:18 AM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

The Shield-Wall Perk says specifically "you may ignore the -2 to attack (B547) when holding a large shield". That penalty in the modifiers table is for "Holding a large shield", whether with or without a guige. The big shield gets in the way.

A "guige" is a strap that carries some of the weight of a shield. One is assumed to be part of any shield with DB 2+ (LTC2 20), though you can get a small price and weight discount for removing it. Note that DB 2 includes medium shields, not just large ones. Occasionally, the guige was intended to carry all of the weight of the shield (as with the Mycenaean shield on LT 114), but generally shields were also held and controlled with one hand, with the guige assisting. The guige is also the bit that lets you sling a shield on your back to carry it, Boromir-style. (I think the use of "guige" to mean "shield used only with a strap" is one of those RPG-isms like the D&D "longsword".)

The -3 for a no-hands Block using only the guige to control the shield (optional rule on LTC2 19) is in addition to any other penalty to the Active Defense you might have. It's also not an attack penalty, but a defense penalty, and applies regardless of the size of the shield. So, the Shield-Wall Perk doesn't apply to this penalty.

This no-hands penalty is the one you'd use if you were trying to block with your shield while it is slung on your back, or for those instances like the Myceanan shield. Note that this rule also introduces the Shield (Guige) specialty, which defaults at -2 to other Shield specialties. This is the skill a character would probably train if the plan is for their routine to be fighting with a greatsword and a no-hands shield with a guige, or else they'd have to soak an additional -2 from the default from their regular Shield skill. J. Random Adventurer that's caught with their shield on their back, but wants to try a desperation Block, would have the -3 for No Hands as well as the -2 for defaulting to Shield (Guige) from their regular Shield skill.

If the big strap-only shield is a significant feature of the character, you might want to break out those advanced guige rules. If it's just a one-off thing for J. R. Adventurer in a game that doesn't routinely go into those details, you might just ignore them. Up to you how much of that sort of detail you want to get into.

Last edited by Anaraxes; 03-08-2024 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 03-08-2024, 10:11 AM   #5
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The Shield-Wall Perk says specifically "you may ignore the -2 to attack (B547) when holding a large shield". That penalty in the modifiers table is for "Holding a large shield", whether with or without a guige. The big shield gets in the way.

A "guige" is a strap that carries some of the weight of a shield. One is assumed to be part of any shield with DB 2+ (LTC2 20), though you can get a small price and weight discount for removing it. Note that DB 2 includes medium shields, not just large ones. Occasionally, the guige was intended to carry all of the weight of the shield (as with the Mycenaean shield on LT 114), but generally shields were also held and controlled with one hand, with the guige assisting. The guige is also the bit that lets you sling a shield on your back to carry it, Boromir-style. (I think the use of "guige" to mean "shield used only with a strap" is one of those RPG-isms like the D&D "longsword".)

The -3 for a no-hands Block using only the guige to control the shield (optional rule on LTC2 19) is in addition to any other penalty to the Active Defense you might have. It's also not an attack penalty, but a defense penalty, and applies regardless of the size of the shield. So, the Shield-Wall Perk doesn't apply to this penalty.

This no-hands penalty is the one you'd use if you were trying to block with your shield while it is slung on your back, or for those instances like the Myceanan shield. Note that this rule also introduces the Shield (Guige) specialty, which defaults at -2 to other Shield specialties. This is the skill a character would probably train if the plan is for their routine to be fighting with a greatsword and a no-hands shield with a guige, or else they'd have to soak an additional -2 from the default from their regular Shield skill. J. Random Adventurer that's caught with their shield on their back, but wants to try a desperation Block, would have the -3 for No Hands as well as the -2 for defaulting to Shield (Guige) from their regular Shield skill.

If the big strap-only shield is a significant feature of the character, you might want to break out those advanced guige rules. If it's just a one-off thing for J. R. Adventurer in a game that doesn't routinely go into those details, you might just ignore them. Up to you how much of that sort of detail you want to get into.
the rules low tech makes each DB 1 minus. 2 minus 3. minus. Shieldwall perk removes this to attack with 1 handed weapons at least but says nothing about the guige usage. (i meant this guige usage as in general in the game as using a shield while not holding it kinda thing else you would just you know hold the shield)
What i mean by this is that you still get the no hands penalty but the large shield negates this unto a 0. while if you used in your hand it will be 3+.

i'm thinking of my teammates build who wants to use a greatsword but campaign hes going to end up on a big battlefield where people have bows and such. if he could negate the ability to attack while having the Guige with the shieldwall perk. and negate the minus of having using a guige with a big shield it would totally be worth it
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Old 03-08-2024, 10:31 AM   #6
Culture20
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

IRL, I have a guige on one of my shields. From carrying it multiple days in a row, it seems the strap is best used as a way to keep your shield arm fresh until fighting occurs (worn so your arm is almost in a sling position). If the guige is long enough to move the shield properly, then it offers nearly no benefit to preventing the arm from tiring out. So the guige would probably be removed from around the neck and held looped in the shield hand before close quarters fighting. It could be left on while protecting versus ranged assault, but again the shield arm would be doing all the work.
I suppose an alternate use might be as a tether in case the shield isn't strapped to the arm.

All said, a guige does nothing for using the shield to block on its own. You have to use at least one arm to maneuver the shield.

Last edited by Culture20; 03-08-2024 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 03-08-2024, 10:46 AM   #7
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

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Originally Posted by King Leonidas View Post
the rules low tech makes each DB 1 minus. 2 minus 3. minus. Shieldwall perk removes this to attack with 1 handed weapons at least but says nothing about the guige usage. (i meant this guige usage as in general in the game as using a shield while not holding it kinda thing else you would just you know hold the shield)
What i mean by this is that you still get the no hands penalty but the large shield negates this unto a 0. while if you used in your hand it will be 3+.

i'm thinking of my teammates build who wants to use a greatsword but campaign hes going to end up on a big battlefield where people have bows and such. if he could negate the ability to attack while having the Guige with the shieldwall perk. and negate the minus of having using a guige with a big shield it would totally be worth it
Note that -DB penalty (or the default -2 for DB 3) only applies to attacks, not to general skill, and shouldn't apply to shield use. So, the Shield Wall Training Perk has no influence on using a guige hands-free, with the exception of possibly granting Sacrificial Block (given you can't really manipulate the shield much when using the guige alone to control it, I'd be inclined to make the character do a Sacrificial Dodge to get in the way as well as a Sacrificial Block to avoid outright taking the hit).

But then, rereading your posts, I think you already know that, and are instead simply asking if Shield Wall Training would negate the penalty for attacking with your sword while using the guige hands-free. As there is no penalty beyond the typical -DB or -2 to attacking while using a guige hands-free, I'd say Shield Wall Training would allow the character to wield their greatsword (or whatever) at no penalty. I would suggest the character opt for a shield with a buckler grip, which takes only one Ready to grab and a free action to drop. That way, the character can simply carry their sword in one hand and keep the other on their shield while advancing (allowing them to Block arrows at full skill), then drop the shield (leaving it hanging by the guige) and Ready their sword (which may be able to be shortened to a free action with Fast-Draw; I'd honestly be inclined to do this as something like Fast-Draw +4). Once they're done with that fight, they let go of their sword with their off-hand (a free action), leaving it unready, and use a Ready to grab their shield (again, appropriate Fast-Draw should be able to avoid this, but Fast-Draw (Buckler) is pretty niche). You lose a second or two for each melee exchange compared to just leaving the shield hanging by the guige the whole time, but being able to Block arrows at (Buckler/2)+6 rather than (Guige/2)+3 is probably well worth it.
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Old 03-08-2024, 12:42 PM   #8
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Note that -DB penalty (or the default -2 for DB 3) only applies to attacks, not to general skill, and shouldn't apply to shield use. So, the Shield Wall Training Perk has no influence on using a guige hands-free, with the exception of possibly granting Sacrificial Block (given you can't really manipulate the shield much when using the guige alone to control it, I'd be inclined to make the character do a Sacrificial Dodge to get in the way as well as a Sacrificial Block to avoid outright taking the hit).

But then, rereading your posts, I think you already know that, and are instead simply asking if Shield Wall Training would negate the penalty for attacking with your sword while using the guige hands-free. As there is no penalty beyond the typical -DB or -2 to attacking while using a guige hands-free, I'd say Shield Wall Training would allow the character to wield their greatsword (or whatever) at no penalty. I would suggest the character opt for a shield with a buckler grip, which takes only one Ready to grab and a free action to drop. That way, the character can simply carry their sword in one hand and keep the other on their shield while advancing (allowing them to Block arrows at full skill), then drop the shield (leaving it hanging by the guige) and Ready their sword (which may be able to be shortened to a free action with Fast-Draw; I'd honestly be inclined to do this as something like Fast-Draw +4). Once they're done with that fight, they let go of their sword with their off-hand (a free action), leaving it unready, and use a Ready to grab their shield (again, appropriate Fast-Draw should be able to avoid this, but Fast-Draw (Buckler) is pretty niche). You lose a second or two for each melee exchange compared to just leaving the shield hanging by the guige the whole time, but being able to Block arrows at (Buckler/2)+6 rather than (Guige/2)+3 is probably well worth it.
as far as i understand in the rules blocking without holding the shield is at a minus 3 it's no sacrificial block or anything essantily your blocking by moving your body and pushing the shield with your elbow a shield protects a static block. this has 3 minus penalty however if you use a large kite shield that provides 3 block it becomes 0. that's sorta far that makes that using a shield in 1 hand is still more effective than not. and the skill for blocking while only neckstrapped/ strapped to your arm is harder
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Old 03-08-2024, 01:11 PM   #9
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

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Originally Posted by King Leonidas View Post
as far as i understand in the rules blocking without holding the shield is at a minus 3 it's no sacrificial block or anything essantily your blocking by moving your body and pushing the shield with your elbow a shield protects a static block. this has 3 minus penalty however if you use a large kite shield that provides 3 block it becomes 0. that's sorta far that makes that using a shield in 1 hand is still more effective than not. and the skill for blocking while only neckstrapped/ strapped to your arm is harder
That all sounds right. I mentioned Sacrificial Block because that's something Shield Wall Training gives you access to that could matter in a defensive situation (the other side, the negation of the penalty to attack with other weapons, doesn't matter when you're on defense). I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence, but I'll note that Shield (Buckler), Shield (Guige), and Shield (Strapped) are all DX/E. Looking closer at LTC2, it does look like you can actually just use Shield (Guige) while holding onto the shield, so you don't need to bother with Shield (Buckler) - just get Shield (Guige) and you can stabilize the shield (getting rid of that -3) with one hand with a Ready and switch back to hands-free as a free action.
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Old 03-08-2024, 09:35 PM   #10
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Question about two handed and Guige

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That all sounds right. I mentioned Sacrificial Block because that's something Shield Wall Training gives you access to that could matter in a defensive situation (the other side, the negation of the penalty to attack with other weapons, doesn't matter when you're on defense). I'm not sure what you mean with that last sentence, but I'll note that Shield (Buckler), Shield (Guige), and Shield (Strapped) are all DX/E. Looking closer at LTC2, it does look like you can actually just use Shield (Guige) while holding onto the shield, so you don't need to bother with Shield (Buckler) - just get Shield (Guige) and you can stabilize the shield (getting rid of that -3) with one hand with a Ready and switch back to hands-free as a free action.
i read it wrong with the last one. concluded you could totally be a 2 handed greatsword user with a shield strapped to you if you want in a realistic game as RAW
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