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Old 11-01-2018, 10:47 AM   #1
kdtipa
 
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Default Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

Hi all,

I couldn't find a previous thread about this with a quick search. I apologize if it's been addressed.

The definition of the Selfish disadvantage is that you are self-important and status-conscious. You spend time striving for social dominance. Social slights might set you off like Bad Temper.

This seems very focused on social standing, when the word "selfish" to me is more the opposite of altruism... meaning that you will make decisions to benefit yourself even at the cost of others. I think the definition as written in the book is closer to "Prideful" than selfish.

So, am I alone in thinking this way? Or, where have I messed up my understanding?
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
Hi all,

I couldn't find a previous thread about this with a quick search. I apologize if it's been addressed.

The definition of the Selfish disadvantage is that you are self-important and status-conscious. You spend time striving for social dominance. Social slights might set you off like Bad Temper.

This seems very focused on social standing, when the word "selfish" to me is more the opposite of altruism... meaning that you will make decisions to benefit yourself even at the cost of others. I think the definition as written in the book is closer to "Prideful" than selfish.

So, am I alone in thinking this way? Or, where have I messed up my understanding?
Yeah, it's well known that you should look at the text for a Disadvantage (or an Advantage for that matter) before putting it on the character sheet because they sometimes mean unexpected things. It avoids ending up with Honest when what you had in mind was something closer to Truthful. And if you want to benefit from incredible coincidences you don't want Luck, you want Serendipity.

But at the same time, a Selfish (as opposed to "selfish") character isn't just a character who is angered any time its status is not respected. It's also a character who is strongly motivated to try to improve that status. It's a kind of Greed but not for money but for promotion. They steal credit and shift blame. They spread rumours about their rivals. They betray their side if the other side will offer them a higher position unless they have other disadvantages that temper their Selfish. They're not just proud, they're potentially treacherous.

A merely "proud" character would probably be built with something like a Gentleman's Code of Honor.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 11-01-2018 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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But at the same time, a Selfish (as opposed to "selfish") character isn't just a character who is angered any time its status is not respected. It's also a character who is strongly motivated to try to improve that status. It's a kind of Greed but not for money but for promotion. They steal credit and shift blame. They spread rumours about their rivals. They betray their side if the other side will offer them a higher position unless they have other disadvantages that temper their Selfish. They're not just proud, they're potentially treacherous.
Hmm. I appreciate the explanation, and I understand what you're saying... it just still feels like the word selfish doesn't apply as well as either prideful or treacherous (though treacherous sounds like an awful trait worth more than -5 at its base cost).
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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Hmm. I appreciate the explanation, and I understand what you're saying... it just still feels like the word selfish doesn't apply as well as either prideful or treacherous (though treacherous sounds like an awful trait worth more than -5 at its base cost).
That's a problem with a number of GURPS traits. About all that can be done is to accept that it exists, and look up the actual definition of the trait before applying it in play, rather than going by what you think the word means. See for example Acting, which is not the skill of playing a role on stage or screen, but the skill of long-term sustained deception (the "long con" and impersonation, among other things).

Of course, you're free to change the name in your own campaign. If you want to call Acting "Deception" or Selfish "Socially Ambitious," no one will tell you not to. (I don't recommend "Proud," because that is already the name of the quirk-level version of Selfish, and you risk confusing experienced GURPS players who already know that definition.) But you're still going to need to know where to find the definition.

I don't recommend keeping the name and changing the definition. The point value was worked out for the existing definition; if you adopt a different definition you are likely to need to refigure the point value too.
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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... See for example Acting, which is not the skill of playing a role on stage or screen, but the skill of long-term sustained deception (the "long con" and impersonation, among other things).
Focusing on that point for a moment... isn't Acting in real life the ability to convince someone of something that isn't true? The actor playing a hardened soldier isn't a hardened soldier. But on screen they shoot guns; face danger; and seem like they're okay with it. If they had to face being shot at in real life, I imagine they wouldn't have a calm demeanor.

I think I feel like the Acting skill is pretty accurate.
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Old 11-01-2018, 11:48 AM   #6
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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I don't recommend keeping the name and changing the definition. The point value was worked out for the existing definition; if you adopt a different definition you are likely to need to refigure the point value too.
In the campaign I'm running, a real-world definition of Selfish is what I'm looking for, so I'm probably going to house-rule that a Selfish disadvantage is more about acting in one's own self-interest, even at the cost of other people.
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Old 11-01-2018, 12:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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Hmm. I appreciate the explanation, and I understand what you're saying... it just still feels like the word selfish doesn't apply as well as either prideful or treacherous (though treacherous sounds like an awful trait worth more than -5 at its base cost).
Only potentially treacherous. Many Selfish people will find that the best way to climb in the ranks is to be loyal to the organization, so they will be although they will be the rats who desert a sinking ship when they realize the object of their loyalty is failing and will take them down with it. Selfish is not Compulsive Backstabbing.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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Originally Posted by kdtipa View Post
In the campaign I'm running, a real-world definition of Selfish is what I'm looking for, so I'm probably going to house-rule that a Selfish disadvantage is more about acting in one's own self-interest, even at the cost of other people.
Well, I don't see any reason to suppose that this is worth the same number of points, so I would recommend trying to estimate what the fair point value is. And that's going to depend on what you mean by "at the expense of other people." Are we talking, for example, about sociopathy? That's likely more of a disadvantage than just being status-conscious; for one thing, it would likely preclude having a Sense of Duty or Code of Honor.

I'd also say, though, that if you do figure the point value from scratch, and end up with both a different definition and a different point value, you really need to warn your players to disregard what the Basic Set says. Otherwise you'll get inappropriate roleplaying.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

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Well, I don't see any reason to suppose that this is worth the same number of points, so I would recommend trying to estimate what the fair point value is. And that's going to depend on what you mean by "at the expense of other people." Are we talking, for example, about sociopathy? That's likely more of a disadvantage than just being status-conscious; for one thing, it would likely preclude having a Sense of Duty or Code of Honor.

I'd also say, though, that if you do figure the point value from scratch, and end up with both a different definition and a different point value, you really need to warn your players to disregard what the Basic Set says. Otherwise you'll get inappropriate roleplaying.
Not sociopathy... at least not completely. Low Empathy I think would also be required. A selfish person doesn't necessarily have a lack of emotional connection like a sociopath. They just generally choose the option that benefits them most, regardless of how it might affect other people. A CEO paying themselves 300 times the average salary of their employees is selfish. A serial killer calmly cutting a restrained person to start peeling their skin off is a sociopath/psychopath.

I am interested in getting input into a new Disadvantage called Selfish that replaces the one in the book for my home game.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Odd Disadvantage Definition for Selfish

Actually, the CEO might very well be a psychopath. Psychopathy doesn't require violence at all - it makes a person who is otherwise predisposed to violence more likely to become violent, however, as people are about as important to them as chairs.

I've worked with a high-functional psychopath. He was unpleasant to deal with but he was actually trying to make a go of it in society. He just... had no understanding of e.g. why I might leave work without permission because I just got a phonecall that my mother was being carried away in an ambulance. Just didn't have the equipment to understand it.

TV style "psychopathy" is psychopathy + other stuff, and they synergize in some horrible way. Obsessions, violent paraphilias, psychosis, etc. - Psychopathy is going to remove the normal forces that counteract these problems socially, because without psychopathy you'll still be dealing with guilt for hurting people for your own pleasure.
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