Using GURPS Thaumatology

[whswhs]

Perverse though it may seem, since I'm just about to start my 2010-2012 campaigns, I've started thinking about what campaigns I might want to run in the next cycle. One idea I'm playing with is a "modern fantasy" campaign with occult and fairly low-powered magic . . . set in the Italian Renaissance, with the magic linked to the rediscovery of pagan civilization and art. I'm leaning toward attaching it to the court of the young Isabella d'Este in Mantua (birthplace of Vergil, and said by the Etruscans to be a gate to the underworld).

So how do I want magic to work? In game terms, I don't want to have flashy spells that turn wizards into human field cannon; in fact, I really don't want to have a recognized profession of "wizard" at all. I want casting a spell/performing a ritual to take minute or hours, not seconds. I don't want to have a big chart of spells that players can use as a shopping list. In short, I don't want it to be a GURPS Magic campaign, but to use other options. So I thought I'd discuss it, as an exercise in thinking out alternate systems.

I think the central concept I want, at least in terms of what the players can know, is "virtue." Every physical object has at least the potentiality for virtue, including human beings.

I think that virtues in this sense have two main subtypes. On one hand, an object can be just an especially good example of the kind of thing it is: a sword can have a superb edge, or a man can be charismatic or hard to kill. On the other hand, it can have the capacity to have an effect on other things in a nonobvious way. For example, there are certain minerals called "eagle stones" (a type of geode) that enhance a woman's HT in relation to the crises of pregnancy and birth; syrup of poppies has the mystical power to make people sleepy. And there are techniques for activating these virtues, either temporarily or permanently. But all very empirical.

In some ways, this would be rather like path/book magic, I think. But in some ways, it would be a means of temporarily acquiring powers.

And I think maybe there would be spirits involved in some way, but I'm not sure how to tie them in. I'd like to retain, for example, the Roman idea of the genius loci. But I'd also need to explain how it was that magic had been dying out in Rome and had largely been driven away by Christianity.

I'm fine with having a bunch of incompatible and half-forgotten magical traditions lingering in the shadows. But I'd like to have some idea as GM what's going on underneath the shell. And I haven't worked this all out.

Bill Stoddard

[Anaraxes]

Random thoughts off the top of my head:

There's two different basic types of magic here. One invokes the spirits, the genius loci and others, and is the magic of Rome. The old magic is dying out because the spirits themselves are dying out.

The other sort of magic is the virtue magic. Manipulating virtue means empirically studying the items and their properties, in a fine Renaissance proto-scientific fashion.

Christianity involves a sort of virtue magic which affects the virtue of the spirits themselves. Spirits either get converted and absorbed into the concept of the One God (sometimes as saints, the way historical Christianity tended to co-opt local gods), or if they're considered evil, they're exorcised, dispelled, and their virtue scattered by priests, whose rituals do affect virtue, of people as well as spirits. (Following Christianity really can make you a better person...)

There's potential for conflict between the spiritual virtue practitioners (the Church) and the material ones, as well as between spirit and virtue practitioners. Remaining pagan traditions might well have pacts with existing spirits. Since none of the practitioners really knows exactly how magic works -- and may not even believe in it, for that matter -- they can't even tell the "sides" apart. You might have materialists also trying to summon and compel spirits, for example.

The Platonic ideal sounds like the exemplar of virtue for an object. Perhaps back in his day, it was all spirit magic, and he's the founder of the virtuous school of thought.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

There's two different basic types of magic here. One invokes the spirits, the genius loci and others, and is the magic of Rome. The old magic is dying out because the spirits themselves are dying out.

The other sort of magic is the virtue magic. Manipulating virtue means empirically studying the items and their properties, in a fine Renaissance proto-scientific fashion.

I sort of see that, but I'm thinking maybe spirits themselves have the power to awaken the virtue of an object, a place, or even a person.

Christianity involves a sort of virtue magic which affects the virtue of the spirits themselves. Spirits either get converted and absorbed into the concept of the One God (sometimes as saints, the way historical Christianity tended to co-opt local gods), or if they're considered evil, they're exorcised, dispelled, and their virtue scattered by priests, whose rituals do affect virtue, of people as well as spirits. (Following Christianity really can make you a better person...)

There's potential for conflict between the spiritual virtue practitioners (the Church) and the material ones, as well as between spirit and virtue practitioners. Remaining pagan traditions might well have pacts with existing spirits. Since none of the practitioners really knows exactly how magic works -- and may not even believe in it, for that matter -- they can't even tell the "sides" apart. You might have materialists also trying to summon and compel spirits, for example.

The Platonic ideal sounds like the exemplar of virtue for an object. Perhaps back in his day, it was all spirit magic, and he's the founder of the virtuous school of thought.

That sounds a little too much as if the Church would be filled with people who actually know how magic works, even a "white magic" tradition. I don't want anything that overt. My thought is that Plato, Aristotle, and Paul were all wrong about how reality works. Whatever the Christians had hold of, it helped drive away more of the spirits, but without their really knowing what they were doing.

Bill Stoddard

[Gudiomen]

IDHMBWM, but...

I think the concept of virtue can work, system-wise, either as alchemy (creation of alchemical charms seem to be on the spot for extracting the uses of virtues). This doesn't have to involve pseudo-chemical shenanigans, instead you can leave an object to bask in moonlight, or whatever. Less chemistry, more ritual and stuff. Potions can have their place too, like the poppy oil you described. As long as you review the alchemical potion/effects list and substitute for more subtle stuff.

This doesn't exclude spirits, perhaps it just uses them in a more indirect manner. The focus is the virtues of substances and stuff though.

The other way to bring in the virtues, is to use the laws of similarity/representation... or a group of thaumatological modifiers related to the virtues, that have a big effect on magic (path/book seems right)... like the decans or something like that. Modifiers can add a lot of flavor to a magic system, specially if skill is low to begin with.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Perverse though it may seem, since I'm just about to start my 2010-2012 campaigns, I've started thinking about what campaigns I might want to run in the next cycle. One idea I'm playing with is a "modern fantasy" campaign with occult and fairly low-powered magic . . . set in the Italian Renaissance, with the magic linked to the rediscovery of pagan civilization and art. I'm leaning toward attaching it to the court of the young Isabella d'Este in Mantua (birthplace of Vergil, and said by the Etruscans to be a gate to the underworld).

So how do I want magic to work? In game terms, I don't want to have flashy spells that turn wizards into human field cannon; in fact, I really don't want to have a recognized profession of "wizard" at all. I want casting a spell/performing a ritual to take minute or hours, not seconds. I don't want to have a big chart of spells that players can use as a shopping list. In short, I don't want it to be a GURPS Magic campaign, but to use other options. So I thought I'd discuss it, as an exercise in thinking out alternate systems.

I think the central concept I want, at least in terms of what the players can know, is "virtue." Every physical object has at least the potentiality for virtue, including human beings.

I think that virtues in this sense have two main subtypes. On one hand, an object can be just an especially good example of the kind of thing it is: a sword can have a superb edge, or a man can be charismatic or hard to kill. On the other hand, it can have the capacity to have an effect on other things in a nonobvious way. For example, there are certain minerals called "eagle stones" (a type of geode) that enhance a woman's HT in relation to the crises of pregnancy and birth; syrup of poppies has the mystical power to make people sleepy. And there are techniques for activating these virtues, either temporarily or permanently. But all very empirical.

In some ways, this would be rather like path/book magic, I think. But in some ways, it would be a means of temporarily acquiring powers.

And I think maybe there would be spirits involved in some way, but I'm not sure how to tie them in. I'd like to retain, for example, the Roman idea of the genius loci. But I'd also need to explain how it was that magic had been dying out in Rome and had largely been driven away by Christianity.

I'm fine with having a bunch of incompatible and half-forgotten magical traditions lingering in the shadows. But I'd like to have some idea as GM what's going on underneath the shell. And I haven't worked this all out.

Bill Stoddard

If it's historically based, you could just use path/book magic employing the types of alchemical and astrological correspondences believed in at the time - although I'd probably make the planetary influences stronger than those of the houses or the decans, both because that's what was believed at the time and because that allows you to group the path/book rituals (those you want to keep available, anyway) into fewer paths. So, you could have Paths of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun, and the Moon, with the Path of the Earth involving both agricultural and chthonic (necromantic) spirit magic. You could also have Books of specific secret lore, such as how to recruit the powers of genius loci using sacred architecture, or how to gain temporary virtues or powers using the innate properties of different materials in conjunction with their correspondences (or you could have these be alchemical preparations to replace many of the standard ones from Magic).

As for why magic had been dying out or getting weaker, pick from a laundry list of reasons, or use all of them:

1) With the precession of the equinox, the relations of the celestial Houses of the Zodiac and their decans to the planets and to mortals have shifted; everybody who's been using old dates to determine when to wear saffron ceremonial robes or what have you has been doing it wrong, and incurring massive penalties to their skill rolls. Getting it right requires a willingness to actually watch the night sky.

2) The spirits of old Roman lore, from the Numina down to the genius locii and lares and penates and lemures, have simply been getting starved of their proper due since the rise of Christianity. Some have become so dormant that most attempts to invoke them in rituals don't even succeed in waking them; others are terribly weak; and some could come roaring back to full potency with just the right sacrifice at the right time and place. E.g., it's possible that a great deal of necromantic power could be garnered very quickly in Mantua by finding the right cavern and reenacting a certain scene from the Odyssey using one's own blood, or that of someone dear to you...

3) Many spirits of place had actually been growing weaker for a long time before Christianity took over Rome, from the point at which they switched over from bronze to iron, and then again when aqueducts were built that shorted out major parts of the spiritual network with running water in straight lines... but there's still a lot of countryside in Italy where these effects have not been much felt.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Many spirits of place had actually been growing weaker for a long time before Christianity took over Rome, from the point at which they switched over from bronze to iron, and then again when aqueducts were built that shorted out major parts of the spiritual network with running water in straight lines... but there's still a lot of countryside in Italy where these effects have not been much felt.

"Is Kansas a civilized country?"

Bill Stoddard

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"Is Kansas a civilized country?"

Bill Stoddard

Might be, depending on how well developed the canal system and then the railway system are at the time you're asking. I'd figure straight lines of 'running' water and of iron/steel to both have greater effects than dirt or even stone-paved roads, 'grounding out' most magic and difficult for most spirits to cross. You've also got lightning rods in addition to church bells in most church steeples by some point in the mid-19th century....

[Anaraxes]

Whatever the Christians had hold of, it helped drive away more of the spirits, but without their really knowing what they were doing.

Yes. Few, if anyone, really knows what they're doing, including the Church. They conduct their rituals by rote, just like everyone else. As you say, the GM has to know how it really works behind the scenes, but that doesn't mean anyone in the game world does.

The Renaissance sense of discovery could come from people just beginning to figure all this out.

The "Material Magic" chapter of Thaumatology seems like it will come in handy. Also, the idea of crafting rituals, where high skill in particular skills gives you access to the ability to bind, reveal, or take advantage of the virtue of existing items. Path/Book magic where the "book" might be Herbalism, or Armory, or Painting. (You have to be an expert to recognize that perfect plant specimen that has virtue, or practiced enough to sort out the ones that are just "left" of center with the ones that are just "right" in the right portions to balance it out. A really expert artist might create a painting that's likeness of someone that is identical for magical purposes. Combine that with some other skills, and maybe you get a voodoo doll, or communication device, or the Picture of Dorian Gray. Landscapes might be a route to portal magic. The skills bound the content of the Path.)

maybe spirits themselves have the power to awaken the virtue of an object, a place, or even a person

Nothing says spirits can't themselves have knowledge and skills that affect material objects. They've had thousands of years to contemplate and practice, if nothing else. I could see one path of power as the spiritualist route. (Why bother with all that hard work and study necessary to be one of those Renaissance polymaths when you can just call up spirits to do the work for you?)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Nothing says spirits can't themselves have knowledge and skills that affect material objects. They've had thousands of years to contemplate and practice, if nothing else. I could see one path of power as the spiritualist route. (Why bother with all that hard work and study necessary to be one of those Renaissance polymaths when you can just call up spirits to do the work for you?)

That works well, overall, but I would want the ability to call up spirits to be rare; if there are mediums and channelers on every street corner the sense of mystery fails. Spirits ought to be occult: hidden from view.

I think there are at least four models for arcane abilities: material magic, book magic, powers, and esoteric skills. Any of those might be a route to commanding spirits, I suppose. Spirits themselves would probably work less like Modular Abilities than like Contacts or Allies (possibly with Minion).

Bill Stoddard

[tylrlsaa]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That works well, overall, but I would want the ability to call up spirits to be rare; if there are mediums and channelers on every street corner the sense of mystery fails. Spirits ought to be occult: hidden from view..
Bill Stoddard

My grasp of history is a bit fried at the moment, but ISTR certain individuals in the past as being accused of heresy for teaching magic at "schools of night" or some such. Perhaps you've got some folks practicing path magic in secret societies, following their ritual and all, because that's tradition.