[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

But aside from the Indogenes in Defiance, I'm not sure I can find more examples of the latter form of Digital Mind.

Any game where copies aren't considered the same PC would have Digital Mind and not those other traits.

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's more a problem that the Digital Mind advantage, as written, seems mostly redundant with Extra Lives/Unkillable and Possession (Digital); if it includes anything like either of those effects it's underpriced, and if it doesn't it's not clear what's left.

• The ability to be stored as data and rebooted.
• Immunity to telepathy without special enhancements.
• Ability to voluntarily edit personality and memories (balanced by the possibility of hostile hacking).
• Traits that are normally exotic or supernatural, like ETS, Compartmentalized Mind, Extra Life, Possession and Duplication are mundane for you.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Any game where copies aren't considered the same PC would have Digital Mind and not those other traits.

I meant specifically the 'biocomputer/bio-brain' kind of Digital Mind. Though I suppose heavily hardwared droids like in Star Wars come pretty close too.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

• The ability to be stored as data and rebooted.
• Immunity to telepathy without special enhancements.
• Ability to voluntarily edit personality and memories (balanced by the possibility of hostile hacking).
• Traits that are normally exotic or supernatural, like ETS, Compartmentalized Mind, Extra Life, Possession and Duplication are mundane for you.

Well, that's the thing.
#1 would be an advantage, but (a) this can be done to analogue minds too, converting them to digital, depending on the tech in the campaign and (b) rebooting seems to be a matter of other hardware - e.g. an Indogene will still irrebootably die in case of heart failure.
#2 is definitely a benefit, but I'd argue that it is counterbalanced by the hacking and virus vulnerability; if anything, it seems to be a swap that GURPS likes to call a Feature (such as spirits not being affected by Empathy but being affected by Spirit Empathy).
On #3: Whether or not having Brainwashing (Brain Hacking) work faster than against normal humans should be bundled with hacking vulnerability is not quite clear to me.
Finally, #4 seems to be an Unusual Background whose value may vary. E.g. in THS, ETS is available to meat-people with some tricks.

So I'm somewhat suspicious of Digital Mind's price. I do totally agree that as a [meta?]trait of some sort, Digital Mind should exist.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I think this is where an enormous gulf begins. You come across as very angry about the advantage-as-written, wanting some sort of justification for its very existence. This appears a pretty strong emotional investment for someone who just wants to talk about house rules. I'm quite sure nobody in this thread is trying to squelch discussion of house rules.

Many of the comments in this thread will come across as very angry if you choose to read them this way. I really am vexed over some of the posts I've read, but I think Digital Mind and me are okay. Perhaps I should buy it some candy and flowers to be sure? ;)

Edit: Serious comment: I will also try to avoid reading hostility into posts as well. I am sure at least some of what I sense isn't really there, possibly all of it. ^^'[/Edit]

Refplace place, thanks. I did not like Fourth Edition at first; what finally sold me on it was seeing how it meant GURPS was moving closer to its name; a generic, universal, role-playing system. So yes, that is important to me; not sure why it isn't more important to most (if not all) other GURPS players... but I can accept that it isn't.

What does seem like an impasse is the limits on discussion. I had to mention it earlier, but the BAotW threads are for discussing traits, and helping people understand them. If people are free to praise a trait, but not to question or criticize it, that praise is meaningless. It is difficult to even ask questions if you have to worry your phrasing isn't sufficiently polite enough.

We got into a discussion about why Digital Mind was written up a certain way and where it came from after I did my initial introduction post. I admitted to being confused by the trait, but that was simply to be honest, as well as provide context for any mistakes it may have led to (as I need others to help me correct those). I didn't start worrying about the history of Digital Mind until it was suggested as the reason for my lack of understanding it.

Someone brought it to my attention that GURPS Transhuman Space has been a bit contentious itself. Questioning Digital Mind isn't me attacking the setting, those who write it, or those who play it. I'm not overly familiar with it, but if I do attack it, you'll know. Not because I'm always forthright and bold, but because I stink at subtlety. XP

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Any game where copies aren't considered the same PC would have Digital Mind and not those other traits.

• The ability to be stored as data and rebooted.
  If copies are not the same PC, this ability doesn't exist; being stored as data inherently involves copying. There might be a 'shutdown' power that lets something go into suspended animation in the same body, but there's nothing particularly digital about that
• Immunity to telepathy without special enhancements.
  That's just a classes of mind thing. It's worth [0], or might be a disadvantage if no other types of telepathy exist in the setting.
• Ability to voluntarily edit personality and memories (balanced by the possibility of hostile hacking).
  That's not specified in the advantage, but it's just the observation that Mind Control (Digital; Conditioning) works on you, and is worth [0]. It might also be an argument for buying Modular Abilities.
• Traits that are normally exotic or supernatural, like ETS, Compartmentalized Mind, Extra Life, Possession and Duplication are mundane for you.
  That's Unusual Background. Nothing wrong with UB(Digital).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I meant specifically the 'biocomputer/bio-brain' kind of Digital Mind. Though I suppose heavily hardwared droids like in Star Wars come pretty close too.

Droids aren't software and probably have Automaton in GURPS, insofar as there is any consistency in Star Wars technology.

(a) this can be done to analogue minds too, converting them to digital, depending on the tech in the campaign and

In which case the emulation gains Digital Mind and isn't necessarily considered the same PC anyway. You can't store them as analog intelligences.

(b) rebooting seems to be a matter of other hardware - e.g. an Indogene will still irrebootably die in case of heart failure.

I am unfamiliar with the setting but if they can't be safely stored they probably don't have Digital Mind. Being able to be rebooted from storage is really the thing that is worth points, here, IMO.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Being able to be rebooted from storage is really the thing that is worth points, here, IMO.

That's Unkillable/Extra Lives.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

If copies are not the same PC, this ability doesn't exist

I don't see how a meta or even philosophical thing about what counts as the same PC or means something doesn't exist. Besides even when they are considered the same PC this is still worth something above and beyond Extra Life via backup.

That's Unusual Background. Nothing wrong with UB(Digital).

Except if you call it "Digital Mind"?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's Unkillable/Extra Lives.

Extra Lives via backup allows you to reboot even if your current instance is destroyed, with memory loss.

It might be a kind of extremely limited Unkillable but it doesn't have any effect on death checks, doesn't allow you to regenerate from an indestructible core, and doesn't allow you to return from a spirit form, so it really doesn't do anything that Unkillable normally does.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't see how a meta or even philosophical thing about what counts as the same PC or means something doesn't exist.

You said "copies aren't counted as the same PC". Storage is copying.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Besides even when they are considered the same PC this is still worth something above and beyond Extra Life via backup.

Sure, because it's not consumed when used. A heavily limited Unkillable is usually a better model than Extra Life.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It might be a kind of extremely limited Unkillable but it doesn't have any effect on death checks, doesn't allow you to regenerate from an indestructible core, and doesn't allow you to return from a spirit form, so it really doesn't do anything that Unkillable normally does.

It's Unkillable 3, No Unkillable 1 (???), Achilles Heel (damage to backup storage), Trigger (needs a new body), and possibly an additional limitation if activating the backup needs to be done by a third party rather than happening automatically. A backup is a spirit form.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Except if you call it "Digital Mind"?

Yes. If something is an unusual background, it should be called that, and it should, like all unusual backgrounds, have setting-dependent cost.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You said "copies aren't counted as the same PC". Storage is copying.,

Just because there is some meta thing that removes the PC-flag doesn't mean that you can't still do it; in-setting there are no PC-flags (usually).

Sure, because it's not consumed when used. A heavily limited Unkillable is usually a better model than Extra Life.

It would be a version of Unkillable that does nothing game mechanically that Unkillable does (it also probably is worth about five points).

Yes. If something is an unusual background, it should be called that, and it should, like all unusual backgrounds, have setting-dependent cost.

That seems to not be the case in GURPS. Omnilingual is another example.