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03-14-2018, 01:16 PM   #2
tbeard1999

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jim Kane The Immovable Foundation-Stone of TFT ... "The Commutative Laws of Mathematics DO NOT work for either subtraction nor division." ... "If a re-designer cannot subtract nor divide from the original premise [(a+b)=(b+a)]=24, because "The Commutative Laws of Mathematics DO NOT work for either subtraction nor division.", what can be done to enhance the system? You can add. ...
Oh yeah? I counter with The Philosophical Revelations of Sinistar. http://onastick.net/drew/sinistar/

:D

Actually, I found your analysis interesting because I have avoided splitting TFT attributes.

If I understood your analysis correctly, the philosophically correct solution to Conan the Wizard problem is to add an attribute. Interestingly, my proposed solution was to add a separate attribute - Power - which would be used instead of ST to power spells. Poof, no Conan the Wizard. Of course, that would affect Wizard vs Wizard duels, since the Wizards don't lose hit points as they cast spells, but that seems a minor thing.

This adjustment would not reduce the value of ST to non-wizards. For them, ST does everything it always has. For wizards, it obviously reduces the value of ST -- which is exactly what you need to eliminate Conan the Wizard.

As an aside, my concern with allowing 2:1 talent points is more due to my desire to ensure strongly defined character archetypes, like Fighter, Thief, Wizard, etc. Providing more talent points blurs those distinctions in my opinion.

03-14-2018, 01:27 PM   #3
Jim Kane
Banned

Join Date: Mar 2018
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 Oh yeah? I counter with The Philosophical Revelations of Sinistar. http://onastick.net/drew/sinistar/ :D Actually, I found your analysis interesting because I have avoided splitting TFT attributes. If I understood your analysis correctly, the philosophically correct solution to Conan the Wizard problem is to add an attribute. Interestingly, my proposed solution was to add a separate attribute - Power - which would be used instead of ST to power spells. Poof, no Conan the Wizard. Of course, that would affect Wizard vs Wizard duels, since the Wizards don't lose hit points as they cast spells, but that seems a minor thing. This adjustment would not reduce the value of ST to non-wizards. For them, ST does everything it always has. For wizards, it obviously reduces the value of ST -- which is exactly what you need to eliminate Conan the Wizard. As an aside, my concern with allowing 2:1 talent points is more due to my desire to ensure strongly defined character archetypes, like Fighter, Thief, Wizard, etc. Providing more talent points blurs those distinctions in my opinion.
No my friend Ty, I think you might want to go over the thing again, and see that adding an attribute as you describe as Power would have to come from a bifurcation of the ST stat as stated in the original Melee premise AND violate the Commutative Laws; and as stated: "The Commutative Laws of Mathematics DO NOT work for either subtraction nor division."

That's not me speaking, that is Arithmetic Law speaking.

The difference is when SJ added IQ it wasn't in any way related to ST or DX, that is why it worked. Your Power stat would have to come from ST, and ST already exists in the original premise' so you would have to bifurcate ST to create Power; if you bifurcate, then you violate the original premise. SJ did not bifurcate anything - it was a clean add.

71. That is not the solution to Conan-the-Scholar. Go back to the OP (1), or flee (142). A little Death Test humor for you LOL!

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 11:10 PM. Reason: typo

 03-14-2018, 02:21 PM #4 Chris Rice   Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built Another solution is to change the means of character development (power increase) from attribute increase to some other means such as hero points or some other method. That has been my approach.
03-14-2018, 02:25 PM   #5
Jim Kane
Banned

Join Date: Mar 2018
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Chris Rice Another solution is to change the means of character development (power increase) from attribute increase to some other means such as hero points or some other method. That has been my approach.
That's a good approach for you Chris, but you do realize that you are stating a whole new premise, yes?

03-14-2018, 05:14 PM   #6
Chris Rice

Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jim Kane That's a good approach for you Chris, but you do realize that you are stating a whole new premise, yes?
Of course I do realise that Jim. And I think it's unlikely that it will be adopted for TFT2, whatever that becomes, but it's still my preferred methodology. At the moment....

What's been nice to see on these threads is the ideas from many long term players, some of which I'd never thought of before and may adopt myself in the future.

03-14-2018, 02:31 PM   #7
tbeard1999

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jim Kane No my friend Ty, I think you might want to go over the thing again, and see that adding an attribute as you describe as Power would have to come from a bifurcation of the ST stat as stated in the original Melee premise AND violate the Commutative Laws; and as stated: "The Commutative Laws of Mathematics DO NOT work for either subtraction nor division." That's not me speaking, that is Arithmetic Law speaking. The difference is when SJ added IQ it wasn't in anyway related to ST or DX, that is why it worked. Your Power stat would have to come from ST, and ST already exists in the original premise' so you would have to bifurcate ST to create Power; if you bifurcate, then you violate the original premise. SJ did not bifurcate anything - it was a clean add. 71. That is not the solution to Conan-the-Scholar. Go back to the OP (1), or flee (142). A little Death Test humor for you LOL!
Heh.

<shrug> Well, that's the best way I can come up with to fix the Conan the Wizard problem with as little disruption to the rest of the system as possible.

And I posit that in the TFT world, ST is already effectively bifurcated. Sorta. Heroes use ST for 2 things - determining the size weapon they can use and absorbing damage. Wizards use ST for 3 things - powering spells, absorbing damage and determining the size weapon they can use. Yet ST costs the same for both heroes and wizards. Also, see my note below about how ST has had additional benefits bestowed on it, yet the "cost" has remained the same.

By splitting the power function out, ST now does the same thing for both Wizards and Heroes. And, you're doing the two things that need to be done (in my opinion).

First, you're removing the main incentive for Wizards to raise their ST to high levels. And you're doing this without having to mess with the magic system (other than replace "ST" with "PW").

Second, you're NOT reducing the value of ST to Heroes.

The second point is why I've resisted the common suggestion to add a "Health" attribute. While it makes ST far less useful to Wizards (thereby addressing the Conan the Wizard problem), it also makes ST much less useful to heroes. Which has the unintended effect of making DX even more valuable than ST, comparatively. This is already an issue in TFT; adding a health attribute makes it worse.

Besides, in Melee, ST was presumed to be as valuable as DX - which is why they cost the same. But when Wizard came out, ST received an additional advantage - it could be used to power spells. Then, in ITL, ST was given an additional advantage - at high enough levels, armor restricted you less (and you could use 2 handed weapons with 1 hand). Yet ST "costs" the same as it did in Melee, despite being more useful. So does the Law allow you to increase the uses (and therefore the value) of ST?

The only other low-footprint solution I can think of is to use IQ to power spells. But this would eliminate the "power vs. knowledge" dilemma that wizards currently have (and that I think is a Good Thing).

Oh, and if I added the PW attribute, I'd still only give starting characters 8 additional points (or whatever the applicable current number is).

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 02:40 PM.

03-14-2018, 02:43 PM   #8
Jim Kane
Banned

Join Date: Mar 2018
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 ST is already effectively bifurcated. Heroes use ST for 2 things - determining the size weapon they can use and absorbing damage. Wizards use ST for 3 things - powering spells, absorbing damage and determining the size weapon they can use.
Yes we use ST to GOVERN the max weapon, GOVERN HTH Barehand Damage, Fatigue. etc. BUT can you independently alter any of those thing out of relation to the other? If not, they are not "bifurcated", as the others do not "stay" - that's how you can tell what is, and what is not.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 First, you're removing the main incentive for Wizards to raise their ST to high levels. And you're doing this without having to mess with the magic system (other than replace "ST" with "PW").
Hang on, I only presented the problem, and the arguments, not any solutions - go back and re-read, to check me

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 The second point is why I've resisted a "Health" attribute. While it makes ST far less useful to Wizards (thereby addressing the Conan the Wizard problem), it also makes ST much less useful to heroes. Which has the unintended effect of making DX even more valuable than ST, comparatively..
Well, obviously HT had to come from somewhere,.. and it would be silly to use DX, so the default is ST, and if you bifurcate ST to create HT, you violate the original premise by taking something out, and if you take something out, you violate the Commutative Law which states that is does not work for subtraction.. and round and round it goes....

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-14-2018 at 02:48 PM.

03-14-2018, 02:47 PM   #9
tbeard1999

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jim Kane No my friend Ty, I think you might want to go over the thing again, and see that adding an attribute as you describe as Power would have to come from a bifurcation of the ST stat as stated in the original Melee premise AND violate the Commutative Laws; and as stated: "The Commutative Laws of Mathematics DO NOT work for either subtraction nor division." That's not me speaking, that is Arithmetic Law speaking. The difference is when SJ added IQ it wasn't in anyway related to ST or DX, that is why it worked. Your Power stat would have to come from ST, and ST already exists in the original premise' so you would have to bifurcate ST to create Power; if you bifurcate, then you violate the original premise. SJ did not bifurcate anything - it was a clean add. 71. That is not the solution to Conan-the-Scholar. Go back to the OP (1), or flee (142). A little Death Test humor for you LOL!
For these Laws to be applicable, isn't it necessary that ST and DX be equally valuable, as posited in Melee? And that IQ has exactly the same value as ST and DX, as posited in Wizard? (Or, that the costs assigned to each attribute in Melee and Wizard are accurate?)

If so, then the laws are likely inapplicable, for two reasons.

First, a strong argument can be made that for heroes, DX is more useful than ST, up to a certain point. 2 additional points of ST will allow you to take 2 additional points of damage - once. 2 additional points of DX will allow you to take leather armor, which allows you to take 2 additional points of damage in every attack.

Of course, ST does govern the size weapon you can use. But I'd have a hard time agreeing that 2 additional points of damage done offsets the advantage of wearing leather armor.

Second, ST has been given additional advantages in Wizard - powering spells - and ITL (advantages of Great Strength), yet the cost has remained the same. So either ST cost too much in Melee or it costs too little in ITL. In the former case, the original cost was wrong. In the latter case, ST has been increased in actual value, yet cost has not been increased.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 03:32 PM. Reason: changed "affect" to "govern"

03-14-2018, 03:06 PM   #10
Jim Kane
Banned

Join Date: Mar 2018
Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 For these Laws to be applicable, isn't it necessary that ST and DX be equally valuable, as posited in Melee? And that IQ has exactly the same value as ST and DX, as posited in Wizard? (Or, that the costs assigned to each attribute in Melee and Wizard are accurate?)
Here's the deal in a nut shell. Melee character creation is based on Algebra; that's why I included the formulaic expressions. But to directly your question of equal-value, can you cite where it says "necessary that ST and DX be equally valuable, as posited in Melee"? I want to get on the same page as you, so I can understand your question.

I do know that the stated premise reads: "or any other combination adding to" so that sounds like variable-value, not equal-value; do you see something else, I am missing?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 If so, then the laws are likely inapplicable. A strong argument can be made that for heroes, DX is more useful than ST, up to a certain point. 2 additional points of ST will allow you to take 2 additional points of damage - once. 2 additional points of DX will allow you to take leather armor, which allows you to take 2 additional points of damage in every attack.
The only Laws I know of govern the manipulation of numbers as a Mathematical Formula. So I am not seeing how you are tying the concept of the Commutative Law of Addition as it applies to the original premise of character creation, and into the specific weapon/damage/armor rules etc; can you clarify?

O
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 f course, ST does affect the size weapon you can use. But I'd have a hard time agreeing that 2 additional points of damage done offsets the advantage of wearing leather armor.
Do you think it might be more accurate to say ST "governs", as opposed to "affects"?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tbeard1999 In any case, ST has been given additional advantages in Wizard and ITL, yet the cost has remained the same.
I totally get what you mean here Ty, but it is outside of the scope of the treatise I presented. That one my friend, is another 2000 word Treatise in my files which I should put up here so we can get into and examine together

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-14-2018 at 03:18 PM.

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