Gm limiting necromancy

[AlexanderHowl]

Zombies should be incompetent soldiers because they are so cheap. A necromancer with Zombie-15 and Recover Energy-15 can create one Zombie every hour without difficulty. A necromancer can easily create a squad of zombies within a day and a company of zombies within two weeks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Not knowing mental skills doesn't mean that you have no defaults at all. It means that you lack points in skills.

The average zombie has Tactics-2, which does mean that they don't have a Tactics default without at least +1 in net modifiers.

Even with a +10 they still only have skill-12, so they still miss 25.9% of things that most people don't even need to roll for (like that they are in a fight, and a general understanding of assault and defense, and that the enemy is either occupying a position or advancing on theirs and so on).

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The average zombie has Tactics-2, which does mean that they don't have a Tactics default without at least +1 in net modifiers.

Even with a +10 they still only have skill-12, so they still miss 25.9% of things that most people don't even need to roll for (like that they are in a fight, and a general understanding of assault and defense, and that the enemy is either occupying a position or advancing on theirs and so on).

Sure, they have a terrible default, but there is still a large difference between that and no default at all. If they had no default, it would be impossible for them to make judgements which are completely obvious to below average IQ untrained humans, such as "being surounded by many strong enemies is bad".

Being able to use skills does not at all stop being important just because your default is very low. Many of the things we usually don't even bother to roll for depends on being able to use skills.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Sure, they have a terrible default, but there is still a large difference between that and no default at all. If they had no default, it would be impossible for them to make judgements which are completely obvious to below average IQ untrained humans, such as "being surounded by many strong enemies is bad".

Yes, I just said all of this.

They do have no default for anything that's an unpenalized (or worse) Tactics roll.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Andreas

No, that is not what the rules says. Cannot Learn means that you can't learn new skills or mental advantages. Not that you can't remember what has happened. It is also not what Kromm says above (since that would make the programming he mentions impossible).


Not knowing mental skills doesn't mean that you have no defaults at all. It means that you lack points in skills.

I'll concede the first part, because I just checked what GURPS Zombies had to say about Cannot Learn and it does mention Reprogrammable "which is just a kind of learning."

However, I'm probably interpreting skills more broadly than you are. For instance, if you teach a zombie "this is here and this is here" would fit under a skill (Area Knowledge), and procedures such as "if this happens, do this" would be part of a skill (such as Soldier or Crewman).

I'd point to the "Who Gets A Default" (Basic Set, p. 173) for why I believe regular zombies don't get a default with mental skills. Defaults assume the person making the attempt has some familiarity with (to use the example in the book) what Scuba gear is and how to use it. If someone loses all their mental skills (due to the No Mental Skills trait), either losing their knowledge or losing the capacity to use it, I would see them as being a blank slate as far as defaults in those skills are concerned.

Originally Posted by Andreas

If they had no default, it would be impossible for them to make judgements which are completely obvious to below average IQ untrained humans, such as "being surounded by many strong enemies is bad".

Do zombies make those judgements? I'm genuinely curious, because I was under the impression they didn't.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Railstar

However, I'm probably interpreting skills more broadly than you are. For instance, if you teach a zombie "this is here and this is here" would fit under a skill (Area Knowledge), and procedures such as "if this happens, do this" would be part of a skill (such as Soldier or Crewman).

By having points in Area Knowledge, you can know that, but just because you do know that does not necessarily mean that you have poins in that skill. It is not a relationship which goes both ways like that. What Cannot Learn stops you from is

"You cannot spend earned character
points to add or improve DX, IQ,
skills, or mental advantages, nor can
you acquire new techniques (see
Techniques, p. 229) or familiarities
(see Familiarity, p. 169) to accompany
existing skills."

Even if you are interpreting skills more broadly than I am, that doesn't really matter in this case. Learning something as simple as "this is here and this is here", does not add character points (otherwise character points would be increasing very frequently indeed...).

I'd point to the "Who Gets A Default" (Basic Set, p. 173) for why I believe regular zombies don't get a default with mental skills. Defaults assume the person making the attempt has some familiarity with (to use the example in the book) what Scuba gear is and how to use it. If someone loses all their mental skills (due to the No Mental Skills trait), either losing their knowledge or losing the capacity to use it, I would see them as being a blank slate as far as defaults in those skills are concerned.

They may or may not initially be a blank slate in that regard, but Cannot Learn does at least not prevent them from obtaining that knowledge, since that does not add character points or Familiarities to them.

Do zombies make those judgements? I'm genuinely curious, because I was under the impression they didn't.

The disadvantages Kromm listed do at least not prevent it. Though depending on how you interpret the No Mental Skills part of the template, it could prevent it. From the Zombie template in Magic, I can't tell if it just removes all skill points in mental skills, or if it prohibits their use altogether.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The average zombie has Tactics-2, which does mean that they don't have a Tactics default without at least +1 in net modifiers.

Even with a +10 they still only have skill-12, so they still miss 25.9% of things that most people don't even need to roll for (like that they are in a fight, and a general understanding of assault and defense, and that the enemy is either occupying a position or advancing on theirs and so on).

Attempting to use raw intellectual ability to make up for a lack of training in a specific Skill is probably something that a being with Slave Mentality wouldn't even try.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Attempting to use raw intellectual ability to make up for a lack of training in a specific Skill is probably something that a being with Slave Mentality wouldn't even try.

They probably wouldn't do it on their own initiative. However if they are ordered to do so by their master, they are much more likely to try than people without Slave Mentality. As the description for Slave Mentality in the basic set says, it is not an issue about how intellectually challanging actions are, but whether you are ordered to do it.

"You might be intelligent enough to obey the command, “Program the computer to detect quarks,” but if you were starving and found $10, you would have to roll vs. IQ-8 to decide to pick up the money and go buy food without being told to do so."

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Andreas

By having points in Area Knowledge, you can know that, but just because you do know that does not necessarily mean that you have poins in that skill. It is not a relationship which goes both ways like that. What Cannot Learn stops you from is

"You cannot spend earned character
points to add or improve DX, IQ,
skills, or mental advantages, nor can
you acquire new techniques (see
Techniques, p. 229) or familiarities
(see Familiarity, p. 169) to accompany
existing skills."

Even if you are interpreting skills more broadly than I am, that doesn't really matter in this case. Learning something as simple as "this is here and this is here", does not add character points (otherwise character points would be increasing very frequently indeed...).


They may or may not initially be a blank slate in that regard, but Cannot Learn does at least not prevent them from obtaining that knowledge, since that does not add character points or Familiarities to them.


The disadvantages Kromm listed do at least not prevent it. Though depending on how you interpret the No Mental Skills part of the template, it could prevent it. From the Zombie template in Magic, I can't tell if it just removes all skill points in mental skills, or if it prohibits their use altogether.

Normally I would just consider learning random details as an example of a familiarity rather than spending points, but the strict reading of the text does seem to specify not acquiring familiarities "to accompany existing skills". It does feel strange for something to be unable to learn yet still acquire knowledge relating to skills it doesn't have, but I guess Cannot Learn might be considered unplayable otherwise.

What I was able to find was in GURPS Zombies, p. 68, under No Mental Skills, the wording says "an inability to use any skill based on IQ, Will or Per" - which would imply the use is prohibited rather than just removing the skill points.

[Dalillama]

Now I'm wondering if some sort of variant Lend Skill could be used to instil Soldier, Tactics, etc. into otherwise nonvolitional undead.