[TG] Grab & Smash, is my math correct? + other Qs

[Ultraviolet]

I've only now just begun to read TG in detail, to try and figure out the system. We don't use it, we play Cliffhangers using Basic and Martial Arts. But another player and myself play Strong Guys and like the insert om MA p118.

Is my math correct here:

Tex has ST13, DX14, Brawling 16 (DX+2) and Sumo Wrestling 16 (DX+2)
He declares an AoA(Double) and calls Grab & Smash: Grapple/Head + Uppercut/Face.

Now, MA p118 says the strike in this move *also* benefits from AoA(Strong). So damage for en Uppercut is thr, +1 for Brawling at DX+2, +2 for AoA(Strong) = 1d+3.

Looking at TG rules, Tex uses Sumo Wrestling at DX+2 for a total Trained ST of 13+2. In his inital grapple at the head he gets 1d+1 CP. TG p24 lists for Grab & Smash that CP may be added directly to damage...That's quite a lot.

Is that right? The strike deals an average of 6 damage, average CP is 4. I know i'tll blow all CPs, but the attack is already really nasty in the basic rules, so +66% damage is a lot!

A second question is about spending CP. TG p5 says you *must* spend CP when dealing damage with techniques. This sounds like all Locks, Choke Hold, Wrench Limb/Spine etc. But I don't see it covering things like Grab&Smash.

Third Question is about Sweep, TG p40. Before TG a Sweep was a 1-round way of forcing an opponent to the ground, while a Takedown requires a round of Grappling first. Sweep on TG p40 says that CP from a previous round of grapling may be spent on the Sweep. But if you want to first grapple the opponent, why not use a Takedown (which is not a Force Posture Change TG p37, I guess)?
Is it because Force Posture Change is harder, because of the -4 for forcing from standing to prone?

[Tomsdad]

My read of TG pg24 is that spending CP to add to damage on the punch replaces the usual damage bonus from Grab and Smash in MA. The AoA aspect is you getting to do both without penalty. But you get an extra benefit by doing both as part of the same move, you get the potential damage bonus from the grapple on the punch which you wouldn't normally get if you were just punching. Even if you had previously grappled (without grabbing and smashing).

However remember you'll need to keep a hand free to do the punch and so won't be able to grapple with it. So that might reduce the effective Grapple ST and thus the potential CP available. But it would depend on the set up of the grapple*.



EDIT: On the 2nd question. I don't think you have to spend the CP you get when you 'grab' to inflict the damage when you then 'smash' but if you don't you lose the extra potential benefits and it just becomes an AoA double attack grapple followed by a strike without the extra grab and smash synergy. Also the spending CP mechanism is different from the other things you mentioned. Normally you spend CP on joint lock etc to set the maximum damage that can be inflicted, and then roll for damage as per the technique getting the damage rolled subject to that cap. But in Grab and Smash the CP you spend from your 'grab' just directly adds to the damage you roll for your 'smash' attack. i.e it's not exactly like for like mechanisms.


If nothing else the 'must spend' stipulation talks about "using grappling skills and techniques", and you are not, you are striking. But that does lead nicely to you could spend some of those CP to reduce location to hit mods for the strike (which might be good if you are targeting the face etc). Ultimately though spending CP to directly add to damage is the extra benefit you get from Grab and Smash over and above a normal AoA double.



*for instance a well known and nasty version would be grab and smash with a knee strike to the face/head as the 'smash' leaving you two hands to do the 'grab'.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

My read of TG pg24 is that spending CP to add to damage on the punch replaces the usual damage bonus from Grab and Smash in MA. The AoA aspect is you getting to do both without penalty.

This pretty much nails it. The more control you have (and control is deliberately put in terms of the thrust damage table to make 'delayed damage' by piling up such points possible) the more damage you can do. So the control spent represents all the potential benefit of Grab and Smash.

A second question is about spending CP. TG p5 says you *must* spend CP when dealing damage with techniques. This sounds like all Locks, Choke Hold, Wrench Limb/Spine etc. But I don't see it covering things like Grab&Smash.

You must spend CP to set the upper bound of damage when using damaging grappling techniques. Grab and Smash is a strike that also MAY spend CP (though it's not a grab and smash if you don't, I guess) to increase damage, but it's not really the same thing. The basic damage is done by the strike, not the grappling technique.

Third Question is about Sweep, TG p40. Before TG a Sweep was a 1-round way of forcing an opponent to the ground, while a Takedown requires a round of Grappling first. Sweep on TG p40 says that CP from a previous round of grapling may be spent on the Sweep. But if you want to first grapple the opponent, why not use a Takedown (which is not a Force Posture Change TG p37, I guess)?

Sweep is still a one-round way of forcing an opponent to the ground. BUT . . . if you happen to have CP you may spend them, so the grapple isn't wasted.

Sweep: Sweep (from skill-3 to skill or ST) vs ST, DX, Acrobatics, or best grappling skill.

Takedown/Force Posture Change (from standing to prone, attacker remains standing): Trained ST, DX, or grappling skill vs Trained ST, DX, or grappling skill. Technique is at -4 unless you go down with him. So that's Trained ST-4, DX-4, or grappling skill-4 vs Trained ST, DX, or grappling skill.

Takedown is better if you drop 2 levels or more: standing to sitting, crawling, or lying down.

They're equivalent if you drop to a knee during the Takedown.

Sweep is better if you want to stay standing, but you have to hit with an attack first, and the foe can defend. Check the Takedown Table on p. 19.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This pretty much nails it. The more control you have (and control is deliberately put in terms of the thrust damage table to make 'delayed damage' by piling up such points possible) the more damage you can do. So the control spent represents all the potential benefit of Grab and Smash.
.

Thank you Tomsdad and DouglasCole for good answers.

So using TG rules a Grab&Smash is an AoA (Double) with CP usage for additional dam REPLACING the MA rules of it also being +2 as AoA (Strong).
This is better than adding the two. Plus CP could instead be spent to lower Hit Location penalties. Good flexibility.

And the strike is just a normal strike using dam bonus for striking skill.

Tomsdad has a good point about a one handed grapple has lower Grip ST. But instead of the uppercut one could grapple the head with both hands and ram in into a wall -“Kiss the Wall”.

Thanks for the tip about the Takedown table, I had not seen it, it seems useful

[Ultraviolet]

I know this is an old post, I started it myself.
But the subject of Grab & Smash is ever relevant, because the character "Tex" in question is still in play in the same campaign.

Conclusion of previous posts is: "Add CP spent to dam, not the +2 (for AoA Strong which MA rules)"

The facts:
Tex has ST 13, DX 14, Brawling 16, Sumo 16, Lifting ST +3
We use the quick and dirty TG rules of "CP inflicted is ½ Trained ST", for 2-handed grapples of course, half that for one-handed.

Tex' Trained ST is 13 + 2 Training Bonus +3 Lifting ST = 18
He grapples for 9 CP 2-handed and 5 CP 1-handed (I think rulesa re to round up?)

Supposing he grabs someone's head with two hands, and proceeds to smash it into a wall, or perform a knee strike - then damage is +9??? Ouch

This is wild because we always get maximum CP for grapples, and in fact sometimes get higher numbers than had been possible if we had rolled it using Thr damage for Trained ST.
We use the quick and dirty because we try to make grappling as fast as possible. One player, who GMs often, complains that grappler use round after round building up CP.
Had we been using the normal rules, average rolls would yield us less CP and the extra damage is less.

Tonight I'm going to suggest the House Rule that the added damage form CP is capped at +2. This seems reasonable, it is what AoA Strong does. Perhaps it shopuld be "+2 per die" but we usually only have ST in the human range.
Additional CP may be spent to:
*Lower Hit location for the attack. Very handy, since missing on an AoA sucks.
*Lower enemy's defence! This is not in TG, but was mentioned in a TG thread as a semi-official thing from DF Grappling IIRC. Also very handy, since missing the punch is bad. Sure the victim already has penalties from the CP, but...
And this last thing should HR'ed into a general thing

Anybody else having this issue? Other solutions?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

We use the quick and dirty TG rules of "CP inflicted is ½ Trained ST", for 2-handed grapples of course, half that for one-handed.

I'll note that Quick and Dirty represents the "near maximum" on every roll.

ST 13/14 is 1d thrust, maximum of 6 on that roll. That's about half.

But the average roll is more like 3-4, whcih is more like 1/4.

You might just cut the totals in half: successful grapple is ST/4, or ST/8 one-handed.

Also: if grapplers build up CP turn over turn, *they're doing it right.* Grappling isn't supposed to be one-and-done like striking. It's supposed to take time unless you're Black Widow.

[Plane]

about stuff like widow spending control points to do attacks... to make it less guaranteed you'd lose control (just risk...)

If we made the analogy that losing your CP voluntarily to inflict damage is like being successfully attacked by an opponent...

what if you got to do a "Grabbing Parry" (against yourself) to re-establish some of the spent CP?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Plane

about stuff like widow spending control points to do attacks... to make it less guaranteed you'd lose control (just risk...)

If we made the analogy that losing your CP voluntarily to inflict damage is like being successfully attacked by an opponent...

what if you got to do a "Grabbing Parry" (against yourself) to re-establish some of the spent CP?

I'm not really sure what you're asking/saying here. Overall, if you want more CP, grapple more. You CAN get few extra CP during a grappling parry if attacked, but 'parry against yourself' seems nonsensical.

Sometimes you have to give up something to get something.