A Question about the perk “Named Possession”

[Lost on Venus]

This is a question of about the perk “Named Possession”, there have been many questions raised in our group about how this perk is applied. Mainly as to what counts as a significant action. There are two versions of this perk.

1. Power-Ups 2: Perks - It earns character points at the same rate as you when you perform deeds of supernatural significance. Page 19.
2. Thaumatology: Magical Styles - It earns character points at the same rate as you when you perform deeds of thaumatological significance. Page 28.

I have five, what I think are comprehensive stories, options that cover several points about “Named Possession”. Please give your consideration to these stories. Agree or disagree, and if you disagree please explain, as I have my own ideas, and I want to better explain them to others. Or take a chair to someone. (Ah, the wanders of the English language)

1. There was a hapless (And Befuddled) PC who was grabbed one night, while he slept, buy plant vines. He was grappled, Entangled, and was being pulled to his doom. As he reached the plant’s great Maw, the mage cast “Blink Other” on him. With him free and clear the party proceeded to serve up salad for breakfast. I consider this a Valid use of the perk “Named Possession”.
2. An NPC had taken a critical hit to an arm. The mage has preformed a “Restoration” spell. Shortly there after, an encounter went due south. The NPC survived the first round, but not the second. He never lived to do anything of significance. (Not even as a damage sponge, there were just too many arrows coming in each round.) The spell was a significance use of Mana points. But any effect was lost to the story line. This one is iffy for me. By its self, the spell and effect was significant, but to the story line, not so much. Leaning toward Valid.
3. You are wandering the country side. Of coarse it is dangerous. Being smarter than the average mage, you cast Blur” Level 2 in advance of any conflict. You are good enough that there is no cost to cast or maintain. Nice way to travel. Nothing happens. That’s just the way it goes sometimes. It is smart, but just not significant. Not Valid.
4. As the mage is working on his great spell, he has to dodge an attack. Blink (literally). The mage is safe. (For now.) Actually this fails on the word “Deed”. Deed – literary: an action that is performed intentionally or consciously. The spell was more reactionary than action. Defiantly Not Valid.
5. There he is. You have the vampire cornered. The stake goes through his hart. It is your action, your intention to stake the vampire. He is a supernatural. It is significant. (For the Vampire). This one does work for Version 1. Perk, but not for version 2. Thaumatology: Magical Styles. So Ver. 1. Valid. Ver. 2. Not Valid.

I feel these give a good rounding of what is possible. Then I suppose there is the question of how to award point. There are several possibilities that come to mind.

1. One point for each deed.
2. One point for each character point awarded that night that the deed was preformed.
3. One and two. One point for each deed, limited to a maximum of character points awarded that night.

I see major problems with one. A mage can get realty busy sometimes. I do not like two, because it does not tie the actions to the award. For a one point option, this one has given me more trouble than it is worth. Your wit and wisdom will be greatly appreciated.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Lost on Venus

Mainly as to what counts as a significant action.

That is the rub and the (primary) reason the Perk will never see play at my table (secondarily it's "free stuff").

1. There was a hapless (And Befuddled) PC who was grabbed one night, while he slept, buy plant vines. He was grappled, Entangled, and was being pulled to his doom. As he reached the plant’s great Maw, the mage cast “Blink Other” on him. With him free and clear the party proceeded to serve up salad for breakfast. I consider this a Valid use of the perk “Named Possession”.

Was this plant actually significant? Was it a creature of the week, or the 'end boss"? Was it even a Lieutenant of the BBEG? Or was it a speed bump?

For instance, Aragorn carries (and uses) Anduriel to kill a lot of Orcs and Gobos... but none of this counts as significant. Even killing trolls isn't particularly significant (even if it is difficult).

However, entering Dunharrow and renewing the Oath of the Dead Men of the White Mountain was a significant event (and was aided by his carrying Anduriel, the reforged sword of Narsil).

2. An NPC had taken a critical hit to an arm. The mage has preformed a “Restoration” spell. Shortly there after, an encounter went due south. The NPC survived the first round, but not the second. He never lived to do anything of significance. (Not even as a damage sponge, there were just too many arrows coming in each round.) The spell was a significance use of Mana points. But any effect was lost to the story line. This one is iffy for me. By its self, the spell and effect was significant, but to the story line, not so much. Leaning toward Valid.

In my view? Insignificant.

Your next two are also in my opinion insignificant. Those are actions, those are not deeds.

5. There he is. You have the vampire cornered. The stake goes through his hart. It is your action, your intention to stake the vampire. He is a supernatural. It is significant. (For the Vampire).

Was this significant for the world or was this just the opening 5 minutes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer? In other words, was this deed significant?

This one does work for Version 1. Perk, but not for version 2. Thaumatology: Magical Styles. So Ver. 1. Valid. Ver. 2. Not Valid.

That depends on which version was bought. The one valid for purchase as a Magical perk, or the one valid as a General Perk?

One point for each character point awarded that night that the deed was preformed.

That's always been my take on it. It earns EXP as the PC does. So if the PC earned 15 EXP for the "session that killed the BBEG" (and is thus significant), the item gets 15EXP.

I see major problems with one. A mage can get realty busy sometimes.

The PC's busyness is beside the point, all that matters is the significance of the deed.


In other words, the wizard can cast a million spells in a session, but if nothing important occurred, the Item gains no points. If the wizard casts no spells, but through his knowledge (Thaumaturgical, Alchemical, or other supernatural lore) managed to avert or end a great menace or put a king on a throne or turn a cursed frog back into a person*, then those deeds should earn the Item points.



* As long as these things aren't routine for the game/genre.

[arnej]

Originally Posted by Lost on Venus

This is a question of about the perk “Named Possession”, there have been many questions raised in our group about how this perk is applied. Mainly as to what counts as a significant action. There are two versions of this perk.

I guess my first question, before we get to significance, would be the nature of the possession.

I mean, if the item is a sword, and the mage casts some spells that count as highly significant (using whatever metric is finally arrived at), and the sword is not used at all, then no, the sword does not get better.

Your scenarios leave that out, which I think makes it much harder to call.

For example, if the mage has a Wand of Plant Control, then perhaps the first scenario might be significant, for that wand.

Can you help me out here?

arnej

[Kalzazz]

1. Was the item used? Other than the stake, no items showed up in the examples
2. If the item is used appropriately and/or interestingly, then I tend to let it count

I tend to let the items name help . . . maybe turning a wandering encounter with goblins to kibble is borderline in my view, but if the sword is named 'Goblin Cleaver' then I'd allow it

[Phantasm]

Mjolner and Gungnir are pretty much the two prototypical Named Possessions IMO, and each has a body of works associated with them. While the Norse had a love of naming everything, very few named weapons have legends built up around them. Tolkien did much the same with Orcrist, Glamdring, Sting, and Narsil/Anduril. You'll notice he never named Gimli's axe or Legolas's bow, or even really gave a purpose to Boromir's Elf-made belt (which I suspect was meant to boost Boromir's strength like Thor's belt).

For instance, I wouldn't say that Thor killing a Dwarf at Balder's funeral because the Dwarf was bothering him was in any way significant to Mjolner, even if he used the hammer to do the deed. Thor impersonating Freyja to get the hammer back from the giants that stole it? That's quite possibly significant, even if the hammer plays a bit part at the end. Mjolner killing Jormungandr during Ragnarok? Pretty much fulfilling the hammer's purpose before Magni inherits it, and worth a lot of experience points.

I wouldn't permit Orcrist to gain experience when wading through goblins, because even for Orcrist that's a fairly insignificant event. Killing Bolg and his bodyguard at the climax of the Battle of Five Armies, however? Yeah, that would be significant for the sword.

Likewise, Sting in the hands of Sam Gamgee when facing down Shelob would be a significant event, win or lose, because Sam is not Sting's usual wielder and Shelob is the ancestor of those giant Mirkwood spiders against whom Sting gained its name.

Just my $0.02.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Likewise, Sting in the hands of Sam Gamgee when facing down Shelob would be a significant event, win or lose, because Sam is not Sting's usual wielder and Shelob is the ancestor of those giant Mirkwood spiders against whom Sting gained its name.

Sting, Sam, and Shelob was the original example I was going to use, but decided instead to go for Anduriel, Aragorn, and The Path of the Dead as that is a fairly atypical role for a sword (instead of killing things, lending credence to identity).

But I can agree with Anduriel gaining points for it's use in the Battle of Five Armies, which was a significant event.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

But I can agree with Anduriel gaining points for it's use in the Battle of Five Armies, which was a significant event.

Except at the Battle of Five Armies on the slopes of the Lonely Mountain, Anduril wasn't yet forged; I'm not even sure Aragorn was old enough to wield it back then, if he'd even been born. (Bilbo was 51 at the time, and left the Shire at 111, then another 18 or so years between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Aragorn meeting Frodo and company at Bree... and Aragorn claimed to be 87 at the time.)

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Those are actions, those are not deeds...
That's always been my take on it. It earns EXP as the PC does.

Which contradiction is the problem I have with the wording. It's not the word "significant". It's "earn xp as the PC". And PCs generally earn XP for all kinds of things that aren't world-saving, narratively-significant "deeds".

The idea is to have an item that scales along with the PC, enabling early finds to be a significant and lore-worthy artifact rather than a D&D-esque series of faceless generic items that get traded in on a better one repeatedly as the PCs "level up". Keeping pace likely requires lowing the bar of significance, and all the more so when you take out the events that don't directly involve the item.

You also have to calibrate the item's xp rate based on the game. If equipment is important, they need to level faster than the settings where equipment is de-emphasized in favor of innate character abilities.

[whswhs]

When do you give points to the character? Do you award them for specific feats? For good roleplaying? For taking part in an adventure? Personally, I only give points for single feats if the feats are really, truly memorable. Gandalf fighting the balrog, or Eowyn and Merry taking down the leader of the Nine, or Bilbo fighting the spiders and freeing the dwarves are the kind of things I'd look at. Gandalf setting fire to a pack of wargs, not so much. But if he took part in an adventure, and used his sword, his sword would get as many eeps for that session as he did.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Except at the Battle of Five Armies on the slopes of the Lonely Mountain, Anduril wasn't yet forged; I'm not even sure Aragorn was old enough to wield it back then, if he'd even been born. (Bilbo was 51 at the time, and left the Shire at 111, then another 18 or so years between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Aragorn meeting Frodo and company at Bree... and Aragorn claimed to be 87 at the time.)

Eh, my error. You said Orcrist and I still had Anduril on the brain.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Which contradiction is the problem I have with the wording. It's not the word "significant". It's "earn xp as the PC". And PCs generally earn XP for all kinds of things that aren't world-saving, narratively-significant "deeds".

To me it should be something that 'legends' are made of. Something that would be remember and spoken of in oral histories. Something for the bards to sing of.

Not "... and Hero slew another 12 orcs that day..."