Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2018, 08:24 AM   #11
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post

While this is part of the original justification for colleges, it's not actually all that hard to believe.

Maybe spells are rigid patterns that don't have any flexibility in them - uttering this particular set of syllables causes a 3d+1 Fireball to launch along a line 16 degrees to the right and 3 degrees down from the center of your field of vision in your leftmost eye. The slightest variation and nothing happens. In that case it's quite reasonable there are people who can cast Fireballs in several different unrelated ways, but nobody knows a spell for lighting a campfire, or even a 3d Fireball.
Yes.

And of course there are tons of fantasy game settings – I'd argue a majority – where magic is a replacement for technology. There, it stands to reason that if a tech-user might have no idea of how to light a campfire with flint and steel (a Survival roll) but be good at turning things into fiery death (using Guns (Grenade Launcher) or Guns (LAW)), a magic-user could be in the same boat. The "But magic-users don't just use fire, they create it!" argument isn't very convincing; I know quite a few real-life people who could use Chemistry to concoct incendiaries but still have no clue about setting campfires with found materials using Survival.

Setting all that aside, big things are easy; it's control that's hard. It's easy to learn how to throw a punch, or to dance with large movements of the entire body. It's much harder to stop a punch a centimeter from the face of a sparring partner, or to lead your dance partner's left leg four centimeters to the right without any apparent upper-body movement. It doesn't strain belief to imagine that anybody can set huge, destructive fires, but only advanced students can set small ones that leave the forest intact.

I really have no issues with a school of destructive magic that just jumps right to Fireball and leaves Ignite Fire for later. It isn't as if prerequisite count is a major control on magic anyway. The things that matter the most in Actual Play™ are energy cost and casting time.

This is why I like clerical magic that divvies up spells by Power Investiture and has no spell prerequisites: Any spell, from the least showy to the most impressive, could be the first spell you learn. What limits your ability to learn the flashy, high-powered stuff isn't prior learning, but an innate capacity to channel enough energy, as represented by your Power Investiture level.

In fact, when talking of "Is it inherent to magic or imposed by magic-users?", I think the need to learn small, controlled effects before large, destructive ones is largely the latter – that is, something insisted upon by magic teachers. It isn't that new students can't blow things up out straight of the gate; it's just that it's expensive and dangerous to teach them to do so. Nobody particularly wants to have to replace the magic library or pay weregild to the family of a deceased professor when some apprentice decides to mess with Fireball on Day One.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 10:15 AM   #12
Culture20
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

We’ve all seen videos of people using fuel for campfire prep which turns into a fireball instead of a campfire...
Culture20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 04:04 PM   #13
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post

In fact, when talking of "Is it inherent to magic or imposed by magic-users?", I think the need to learn small, controlled effects before large, destructive ones is largely the latter – that is, something insisted upon by magic teachers. It isn't that new students can't blow things up out straight of the gate; it's just that it's expensive and dangerous to teach them to do so. Nobody particularly wants to have to replace the magic library or pay weregild to the family of a deceased professor when some apprentice decides to mess with Fireball on Day One.
Good points. This could be a benefit to mage guilds, cities prefer mages casting within city limits to have control.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2018, 04:10 PM   #14
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
It really will vary on the setting.
Yup. For Infinite Cabal, I use hermetic astrology and decans a lot. The colleges really do represent the structure of magic and the universe, and other powers are associated with the decans that don't have colleges.

The PCs have been to a version of the Iconic Realm where there is a physical realm for each decan, and spells are living things that you can talk to and get to know.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 01:31 AM   #15
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
And of course there are tons of fantasy game settings – I'd argue a majority – where magic is a replacement for technology. There, it stands to reason that if a tech-user might have no idea of how to light a campfire with flint and steel (a Survival roll) but be good at turning things into fiery death (using Guns (Grenade Launcher) or Guns (LAW)), a magic-user could be in the same boat. The "But magic-users don't just use fire, they create it!" argument isn't very convincing; I know quite a few real-life people who could use Chemistry to concoct incendiaries but still have no clue about setting campfires with found materials using Survival.
I don't think comparing a grenade launcher to a fireball spell is valid, presumably a fireball spell includes some ability to create, otherwise it's a bit like saying a charcoal maker can't build a campfire! Unless of course the fireball spell doesn't work by creating fire, but rather some other means, and that doesn't really change the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Setting all that aside, big things are easy; it's control that's hard. It's easy to learn how to throw a punch, or to dance with large movements of the entire body. It's much harder to stop a punch a centimeter from the face of a sparring partner, or to lead your dance partner's left leg four centimeters to the right without any apparent upper-body movement. It doesn't strain belief to imagine that anybody can set huge, destructive fires, but only advanced students can set small ones that leave the forest intact.
The anime Irregular At Magic School touches on this, explaining how, from the point of spell complexity, it's easier to throw your opponent into a wall then float an egg across a room because you want the egg to remain intact. This however ignores power considerations, while an apprentice mage is far more likely to engulf himself in a fire ball then light a candle, but he's not going to do it in a very efficient manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I really have no issues with a school of destructive magic that just jumps right to Fireball and leaves Ignite Fire for later. It isn't as if prerequisite count is a major control on magic anyway. The things that matter the most in Actual Play™ are energy cost and casting time.
This is a problem that crops up from time to time with the prerequisite chains in Magic, that said if they mean nothing, why do they exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
This is why I like clerical magic that divvies up spells by Power Investiture and has no spell prerequisites: Any spell, from the least showy to the most impressive, could be the first spell you learn. What limits your ability to learn the flashy, high-powered stuff isn't prior learning, but an innate capacity to channel enough energy, as represented by your Power Investiture level.
Doesn't Power Investiture represent borrowed or gifted magic? Because it can make sense for someone to have blind spots then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
In fact, when talking of "Is it inherent to magic or imposed by magic-users?", I think the need to learn small, controlled effects before large, destructive ones is largely the latter – that is, something insisted upon by magic teachers. It isn't that new students can't blow things up out straight of the gate; it's just that it's expensive and dangerous to teach them to do so. Nobody particularly wants to have to replace the magic library or pay weregild to the family of a deceased professor when some apprentice decides to mess with Fireball on Day One.
Fair enough, but I'd think that chances are before you blow up someone else with a Fireball you'll succeed in blowing yourself up.
scc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 06:52 AM   #16
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post

This is a problem that crops up from time to time with the prerequisite chains in Magic, that said if they mean nothing, why do they exist?
Please note that I didn't say they mean nothing; I said they aren't a major control on magic.

On the game-world level, prerequisite structure definitely means something! It embodies the philosophy of a school of magical thought, represents the course calendar of an academy, reflects the biases of the archmages willing to accept apprentices this century, or something similar. As many people in this thread have pointed out already, those are worldbuilding issues. They are extremely meaningful for establishing a setting's "flavor."

On a rules level (that is, in Actual Play™), prerequisite structure isn't the control on PC power that energy cost and casting time are. I can line up 20 prerequisites in front of a spell, but that's ultimately just 20 points, and along the way gives the wizard 20 other neat magic tricks. If I want that spell to be harder to (ab)use, that isn't much of a fix. The solution is to have it cost 8 energy instead of 4, or take 5 seconds instead of 1. Getting that spell up to where high skill knocks casting time and cost down to 1 second and 4 energy will cost more like 50+ points even for a talented mage, and those points are one-note, doing nothing to expand the caster's repertoire.

It's essential not to assume that the goal of every character-creation rule is to curb PC capabilities. Prerequisites are more about "makes sense" than "limits power." So are familiarities, which cost no points! And so are optional specialties, which can make a character better, for free, in one area important to the player. It's just good worldbuilding to assume that people take the 100-level course before the 200-level one, learn to drive specific vehicles or shoot specific guns, pursue a particular research interest in physics or literature, etc. None of that has anything to do with being better in combat or otherwise "more powerful."

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post

Doesn't Power Investiture represent borrowed or gifted magic? Because it can make sense for someone to have blind spots then.
It can represent whatever makes sense in the game world. In many settings, clerics still have to study and understand the magic, but they don't have to learn what narrow-minded wizards consider "related" spells. Clerics learn a series of prayers, and may well be quite informed about what those invocations mean and do. It's just that they can only expect their deity to pay attention when they say those prayers if they have enough Power Investiture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post

Fair enough, but I'd think that chances are before you blow up someone else with a Fireball you'll succeed in blowing yourself up.
As was noted earlier, that depends entirely on what Fireball is. If it's very specifically the ritual of projecting fire at a distance, even bad castings might not create fire dangerously close. Flame Jet, on the other hand . . .
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 07:08 AM   #17
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

One of the reasons why I like flexible magic is because it does not bother with Colleges or Prerequisites (and sometimes does not even bother with Magery). When combined with Threshold-Limited magic, it may represent manipulation of reality. When combined with Spirit-Assisted magic, it may represent contracts with major spirits. When combined with the Energy Accumulation, it may represent negotiations with minor spirits. When combined with the Effect Shaping, it may represent domination of minor spirits. As GMs, we are free to mix and match as we wish.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 07:21 AM   #18
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
As was noted earlier, that depends entirely on what Fireball is. If it's very specifically the ritual of projecting fire at a distance, even bad castings might not create fire dangerously close.
In the model where wizards are just technicians invoking set effects without even having to know or care about the details, especially with short linchpin-style triggers, a mistake might not even create fire at all. The spell might just fizzle from a meaningless trigger, or have any other magical effect -- a good place to insert a random spell failure table.

Imagine just typing random commands into your Unix shell. "fireball" gets you a fireball, but maybe you have a typo. "fireb" was intended as short for "fire bad" and gives you Protection From Fire; "freball" just compresses all your stuff in your pack(puts your files back into their tarball); and "freb" starts playing Lynryd Skynryd tunes out of nowhere.
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 07:30 AM   #19
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post

and "freb" starts playing Lynryd Skynryd tunes out of nowhere.
Though that might at least light your campfire. Okay, your cigarette.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 08:04 AM   #20
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: [Magic] Colleges And Prerequisites: What Are They?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
Now I'm not talking about those for any given spell or group of spells, but rather the concepts in general. Specifically are they human concepts to put spells into like groups and result in well rounded mages? Or are they simply how magic works?
While I don't wish to dispute what has been said about this previously, I do want to note that the idea of a distinction between "human concepts" and "how magic works"—or, as Kromm puts it, between epistemology and ontology—may in itself be the expression of a rationalistic and objectivistic worldview that foreign to magic. Or at least to a view of magic that makes it something other than an odd sort of technology. If magic really works then the subjective human perception of how things are may actually influence how things are.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

I don't think we're in Oz any more.
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
magic, magical styles, thaumatology

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.