Control and Create discussion: Need help!

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by satanicway

This lets you add Armor Divisor Disvantage if you are facing someone you knows have no DR. Or Obvious if you know theres no problem being spotted.
Or add Nuissance if theres no one looking. I think you understand what im trying to say.
Are you sure you can add limitations to those powers, and powers made with Modular Ability?

Yes; it mentions enhancements and limitations right in the description as quoted to you. Now, it's certainly up to the GM to rule out abuses of this, such as the ones you mention. With Wildcard Abilities, this should be relatively easy, since not all limitations will make sense as being related to the base ability in the first place.

[satanicway]

It depends:

Someone that controls fire , can easly make:

Obvious -5%
Noisy 5 -10%

Just because, well he throws balls of explosive fire that creates alot of Light and a huge sound.

But when stealth is needed:

He adds Low signature.
He can explain that now, hes using a focused beam of silent fire, to attack directly the enemy without making sound.
Or even that hes filling an area with essencial fire, and burning the enemys, without any kind of explosion or extreme light.
(Its still fire, so still produces light, but not fireworks kind of light)

There is much more ways to abuse this.

Well, atlast you are paying alot of points for this versatility. But IDK where the line of abuse, and the versatility are in this case.

T_T There is no official explanation to WildCard disvantages?

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by satanicway

It depends:

Someone that controls fire , can easly make:

Obvious -5%
Noisy 5 -10%

Just because, well he throws balls of explosive fire that creates alot of Light and a huge sound.

Temporary Disadvantage: Noisy makes the person noisy, not the ability. If it doesn't make sense for it to do so (which it doesn't here; Obvious is enough), it shouldn't be allowed. In fact, I'd say that Noisy isn't a legitimate option for Temporary Disadvantage - Obvious is already worse than Noisy, as it makes stealth impossible.

Again, if it doesn't disadvantage the character, it's not a Limitation. Creating this ability in combat probably doesn't net you any points (and even if it does, there isn't a lot you can do with that extra 5%).

Originally Posted by satanicway

But when stealth is needed:

He adds Low signature.
He can explain that now, hes using a focused beam of silent fire, to attack directly the enemy without making sound.
Or even that hes filling an area with essencial fire, and burning the enemys, without any kind of explosion or extreme light.
(Its still fire, so still produces light, but not fireworks kind of light)

There is much more ways to abuse this.

Only if that makes sense. Unless the character can create essential fire (an Enhancement on Create), he might not be able to justify a silent attack. Of course, if the GM does allow it, this is hardly abuse - he's paying points for such versatility.

Originally Posted by satanicway

Well, atlast you are paying alot of points for this versatility. But IDK where the line of abuse, and the versatility are in this case.

T_T There is no official explanation to WildCard disvantages?

The line is simple - if it doesn't limit you in that instance, it's not a Limitation. For purposes of maintaining sense of disbelief, however, you might want to simply disallow certain Limitations. Some Nuissance Effects might be disallowed, probably all Accessibilities, and so forth. Things like Melee Attack, Cannot Parry, Blockable, etc are pretty much always disadvantageous in some way, so they should be allowed.

[satanicway]

I really dont see where "The ability makes you obvious,limiting stealth and attracting enemys." means you cant use stealth at all.

It seems to me that it makes you shine, or requires some aloud speaking of power, and that makes Obvious that you are activating a power, and probably what kind of power it is.
If you are hidden, it increases chanses you will be spotted, and even more if you are trying to sniper a foe with a long range ability with obvious.

And yes, Noisy makes you more perceptible with a hearing roll. A power that needs you to do alot of noisy, is Noisy.
Its a disvantage compared to a power that dont do that.

Ex:
Innate Atack 5d6, Burning, Area of Effect 16yrds, Incresed Range x10.
Nuissance Effect Noisy -5 (-10%), Makes you Obvious (-5%)

Thats a ball of fire that makes ALOT of Noise when you cast, and probably if the GM rule so, when it hits.
Since to use this ball of fire, our hero needs to create two big balls of fire, that are very bright and that makes alot of noise, them when he shoots, it leaves a trail of fire in the air, until it hits the area, causing a big explosion and more noise.

Thats why its Noisy -5 and Obvious

Now if he can shoots beams of laser, or balls of acid that dont make noise, if the enemys dont survive to scream of course, it would not have such disvantages.

Limiting Stealth isnt equal negating it.


About the Create Fire (Essencial Fire)
No you will not pay even 1 more point for that.
Thats because you are using WildCard rules. So its based on the amount of points you expand, not on the levels of the power.
So its the same to have Create Fire 15, or Create Fire 10 with Essencial Fire. The only difference is that with the secound you can justify ALOT more feats. So the way it works is wrong.

Another problem about wildcard is that:
How a Super with a WildCard fire power, (lets say 1200pts on it) will in the same turn:
Fly, Fire Bolts of Fire at enemy 1, Resist the High Temperature Enemy 2 is creating, and Protect himself against the Bullets shoot by Enemy 1, and Enemy 3?

By the rules you cant... But i dont think that its unreasonable, if you are playing a classic supers game.

About the limitations needing to be limitations on "that instance". Some of them that are situational would worth ALOT more.
Some disvantages are ballanced on the fact that they may cause you big problems, but not every time. If the only time you will use them, is when its causing you big problems. Them they should worth alot more.

For me this limitation system on WildCard needs to be reworked.

The exemple on the book is alittle wrong... You cant add limitation Wings, on lets say a Innate attack with your wings, or a Lifting ST.

Something doesnt fit...

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by satanicway

I really dont see where "The ability makes you obvious,limiting stealth and attracting enemys." means you cant use stealth at all.

It seems to me that it makes you shine, or requires some aloud speaking of power, and that makes Obvious that you are activating a power, and probably what kind of power it is.
If you are hidden, it increases chanses you will be spotted, and even more if you are trying to sniper a foe with a long range ability with obvious.

And yes, Noisy makes you more perceptible with a hearing roll. A power that needs you to do alot of noisy, is Noisy.
Its a disvantage compared to a power that dont do that.

Ex:
Innate Atack 5d6, Burning, Area of Effect 16yrds, Incresed Range x10.
Nuissance Effect Noisy -5 (-10%), Makes you Obvious (-5%)

Thats a ball of fire that makes ALOT of Noise when you cast, and probably if the GM rule so, when it hits.
Since to use this ball of fire, our hero needs to create two big balls of fire, that are very bright and that makes alot of noise, them when he shoots, it leaves a trail of fire in the air, until it hits the area, causing a big explosion and more noise.

Thats why its Noisy -5 and Obvious

Temporary Disadvantage can only be applied to abilities that switch on and off. Personally, I'd allow it to apply to attack powers, but it wouldn't give the power a disadvantage - it would give the character one, probably for at least a minute. That massive fireball would have Nuissance Effect - Makes you Obvious only. There's no legitimate way for it to somehow make the character noisy.
I'll admit I misremembered the description of obvious. I think it's meant to represent anything from a missile to a roaring jet engine. As I said before, however, some Limitations might not be appropriate for Wildcard powers (and modular abilities in general).

Originally Posted by satanicway

About the Create Fire (Essencial Fire)
No you will not pay even 1 more point for that.
Thats because you are using WildCard rules. So its based on the amount of points you expand, not on the levels of the power.
So its the same to have Create Fire 15, or Create Fire 10 with Essencial Fire. The only difference is that with the secound you can justify ALOT more feats. So the way it works is wrong.

You can always require the Wildcard abilities to have (Essential Fire +50%) on them if you feel this is unbalanced. Actually, now that I've read the description of Essential Fire, it's clear that it really isn't going to justify much. At best, we're talking about maybe the ability to allow the Advantage to work underwater.

Originally Posted by satanicway

Another problem about wildcard is that:
How a Super with a WildCard fire power, (lets say 1200pts on it) will in the same turn:
Fly, Fire Bolts of Fire at enemy 1, Resist the High Temperature Enemy 2 is creating, and Protect himself against the Bullets shoot by Enemy 1, and Enemy 3?

By the rules you cant... But i dont think that its unreasonable, if you are playing a classic supers game.

That last bit threw me off. Are you saying you want the character to be able to do this, or that you don't? Personally, I think you should be able to rearrange your wildcard abilities once per turn (at the start of your turn). So, to be able to do all that, he'd need to invest some points to have the Flight Advantage, some for an Innate Attack, and the rest for things like Temperature Tolerance and Damage Reduction. With 300 points to spare, he should be able to manage all this.

Originally Posted by satanicway

About the limitations needing to be limitations on "that instance". Some of them that are situational would worth ALOT more.
Some disvantages are ballanced on the fact that they may cause you big problems, but not every time. If the only time you will use them, is when its causing you big problems. Them they should worth alot more.

For me this limitation system on WildCard needs to be reworked.

The exemple on the book is alittle wrong... You cant add limitation Wings, on lets say a Innate attack with your wings, or a Lifting ST.

Something doesnt fit...

Reworking Limitation values is, for me, too much hassle. I'd rather just either allow them to only come into play when it matters, or simply outright disallow situational Limitations. Personally, I'd go with a mix - some I'd outright disallow (Accessibilities), others I'd let work only when they mean something (disadvantageous armor divisors).

As for the Limitation clause in the book, I suspect this was meant more that you can't have wildcards that work when the base ability wouldn't. So, if your base ability has Only on Weekends, so should all of your wildcards.

[satanicway]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Temporary Disadvantage can only be applied to abilities that switch on and off. Personally, I'd allow it to apply to attack powers, but it wouldn't give the power a disadvantage - it would give the character one, probably for at least a minute. That massive fireball would have Nuissance Effect - Makes you Obvious only. There's no legitimate way for it to somehow make the character noisy.

Noisy from one attack or from becoming noisy for a minute, have exactly the same disvantage, attracting attention. The GM may rule that the bonus to the enemys, be greater since its a really fast noise, and not a continuous one.
It needs to work this way, because without that, its impossible to model a fireball that makes alot of noise, and a beam that does not.

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

That last bit threw me off. Are you saying you want the character to be able to do this, or that you don't? Personally, I think you should be able to rearrange your wildcard abilities once per turn (at the start of your turn). So, to be able to do all that, he'd need to invest some points to have the Flight Advantage, some for an Innate Attack, and the rest for things like Temperature Tolerance and Damage Reduction. With 300 points to spare, he should be able to manage all this.

They should be. But by the rules, they cant. Read WildCard Power again.
And even if you use your rules, that you distribute 1/4 of your expended points in the abilitys, they will be marginal abilitys.
If you divide the points for an Innate Attack, a Fly, a Temperature Tolerance and a Damage reduction you will end up with:
Fly 40pts
Temp Tolerance 60pts Enough to protect you against most Temp.
Innate Attack: Now its a problem, you need atlast 150pts here.
DR: 50pts? Lol DR 10

If you are in a party with non wild-card characters, they will use that 1200pts to have some unique powers (250pts), some attacks (480pts), a defense (300pts), variety of others defenses (170pts).
Thats 1200pts.
With enough points to buy invisibility, fly, mind control, and other cool abilitys. You will use some Alternate Power rule, to have even more versatility if you need.
You will have enough points to have one attack of 300pts and 3 other Alternate attacks for different uses.

This all for the same points to have, 300pts of variable abilitys, that cant have all the normal limitations you can add to a power so becoming even more powerful.

Its ok, you have the versatility right?
No its not ok.
Because NPCs will need damage enough to pass your friends DR, so almost 1 or 2 shotting your poor DR.
NPCs will need a descent DR to resist your friends attacks, your will almost not pass his DR.

See?
Versatility isnt that great in Gurps.
Its good, but not enough to consume so much more points, and restrict the best way to make powerful advantages becoming affordable, that is limitations.

Thats why an alternate power costs 1/5.

Modular ability is expansive mainly because it can gives you mastery on ANY Skill at the time needed. And skills in gurps are really important.
If it wasnt for that, it would cost alot less im sure.
(A Modular ability that doesnt work for skills, have Reflexive time of changing, and have a limitation to only be used on points explained for a certain kind of advantage, should cost less them 4pts/pt IMO. Maybe 2.5 or 3... following the same limitation rules for WildCard)

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by satanicway

The exemple on the book is alittle wrong... You cant add limitation Wings, on lets say a Innate attack with your wings, or a Lifting ST.

Something doesnt fit...

You missed the last sentence which notes that the character is flying for both of the other abilities. You also seem to be assuming that the enhancements and limitations need to match. They don't. Since his base ability is Flight, he needs to be flying, as otherwise he isn't using his wings. Because it's a wildcard, we can ignore things like 'Only while flying' in calculating the cost of other abilities. This something I find inherently obvious when using a physical ability as the base.

For instance, if someone chose to base their wildcard off of Enhanced Move (Ground) they'd need to be moving when using any other abilites as part of that wildcard. They could take Instantaneous Acceleration and Complete Maneuverability. All this would do is increase the amount of points they use for when adding Striking ST for an attack. Taking Road Bound would decrease it. Taking All-Out would would require some GM judgement, the generic All-Out limitation isn't the same as the one for Enhanced Move. The simplest approach is build the Striking ST with the cost for All-Out from Enhanced Move (ground) (unless the Enhanced Move does have Instantaneous Acceleration, and assuming the speedster wants to have to slow down to use a slightly stronger attack). However, taking All-Out would prevent using the Enhanced Move as an Enhanced Dodge.

The important part is that none of the other abilities cost more than the original cost of the wildcard ability, and are justified whilst using the wildcard ability.

[satanicway]

Dinadon:
I understand that they dont need to match.
But most of limitations cant be added because they are situational.

Because of that, and the huge price (x4) of WildCard it becomes almost useless.

Read my last post, you will understand what im trying to say.

A 1000pts character made with one WildCard Ability of 700pts and other 300pts in attributes and advantages will be almost a joke if compared to another 1000pts character made without it, and some Alternate Power for versatility, on advantages and attacks.

Thats because Damage, DR, HP, and other important stats are absolute numbers that are you add or reduce from enemys.
If you do Half-damage them the rest of the group, in fact you will be doing no damage, sicne most of the time your damage will stop on enemy DR.
Same for your damage. If your damage isnt comparable, you will end hitting their DR.

You pay 400pts for a WildCard power, this gives you:
1 Advantage of 100pts
As many advantages you can explain in a given turn that added dont cost more them 100pts.
That if you dont use Control or Create as base, being almost useless as they are. Because if you do, its much worse.

Even them, its a 100pts attack, or defense, or affliction.
Your enemys are prepared for atlast 300pts attacks not 100.

[SuedodeuS]

satanicway, you appear to be assuming that all of the opponents will be brick-killers who are bricks themselves as well as being fast enough to require a speedster to catch up with. Unless all of the characters are essentially recolors of each other (or your GM is a sadist), this won't be the case. There will be enemies that can get through a brick's defenses, there will be enemy bricks, there will be enemy speedsters... but they won't all be the same person. The Modular Man (be he using Modular Abilities or Wildcards) might not be able to defend against the brick-killer, successfully hinder the brick, or outrun the speedster. What he will (or, rather, can) have is enough defense to survive any attack from the brick and speedster, enough offense to seriously harm the brick-killer and speedster, and enough speed to outrun the brick-killer and the brick. Unlike a typical Jack of All Trades, however, he'll actually be able to modulate his abilities for various situations. He can put up an obscuring wall to block the brick-killer's view. He can add an armor divisor to his attacks to allow at least some damage to get through to the brick. He can trap the speedster behind a wall - or increase his RoF (and/or decrease Rcl) to improve his chances of hitting him.

Of course, a lot of this depends on the base ability, as well as the imagination (and maybe even Fast-Talk skill!) of the player. 4x might still be more than is appropriate, but you are getting a lot of versatility for those points - you're essentially getting Physical Only Cosmic Modular Abilities at 1/5 the normal cost. Using multiplicative modifiers, that means restricting the abilities to those related to the base ability is a -80% modifier... using additive, that means it's a -120% modifier. Those are some rather substantial savings.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by satanicway

Noisy from one attack or from becoming noisy for a minute, have exactly the same disvantage, attracting attention. The GM may rule that the bonus to the enemys, be greater since its a really fast noise, and not a continuous one.

Temporary disadvantage is capped at how much of a discount it can give. Noisy 5 (-10 points as a disad) can't reduce the cost of an ability by more than 8 points even though it's worth a base -10%.

Nuisance effect: Loud already makes stealth impossible. By default are usually obvious adding unmissable noises means they can't miss that you're doing something.