Question on an odd curse combo

[RichardMv]

My roommates and I were playing a game of Munchkin (Cthulhu + Fu) the other day and ended up in a game-ending hour+ long argument over the interpretation of two curses: Madness Takes its Toll and Weapon Becomes Evil.

Moderator edit: Removed card text. Please don't post card text on these forums.

The first roommate (E, for ease of remembering) had Weapon Becomes Evil on an 800 Gold item. He kicked down the door and got Madness Takes its Toll, forcing him to discard 1000 gold worth of items. He decided to pay the two levels in order to discard the 800 gold item and applied that gold value to the 1000 gold 'toll'. Thus began the argument.

Roommates 2 and 3, D and H, said that this was a valid move, since Weapon Becomes Evil says nothing about not being able to use the discard to pay another cost. Their argument was that paying 2 levels allowed E to discard the card at any time for any reason.

myself and roommate 4 (R) argued that the paying 2 levels and discarding the card were one effect and couldn't be used for any other effect, whether it be the cost of Madness Takes its Toll, going up a level, or anything else.

I can see D and H's point, but at the same time I feel like the discard is for the sake of getting rid of the penalty of the evil weapon.

What do my fellow munchkins think?

Also, another quick question: if O'Rlyeh is used to cancel out a wandering monster, what happens to the monster?

[Andrew Hackard]

You cannot use the same discard to "clear" two Curses.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

You cannot use the same discard to "clear" two Curses.

The issue here, though, is whether one might shed the older persistent Curse by losing two Levels (conditions as written on Weapon Becomes Evil) while in the middle of dealing with the effects of Madness Takes Its Toll. We've said no on this in the past, and I will continue with that stance here: You can't pause or interrupt an immediate effect without using a card which specifically cancels that effect. So, you can use a Wishing Ring to cancel Madness Takes Its Toll, or else you have to deal with it, and you can't pause it long enough to dump 2 Levels to un-Evil your Evil weapon so you can pay Madness's toll with it. . .

Edit: For some reason, I misunderstood something. Getting rid of the curse by losing Levels doesn't leave you with the Item. Regardless, what I said, aside from that, stands: You must deal with immediate effects when they occur, and you can't do anything else until they've been dealt with, or you have a card which allows you to break that rule.

[RichardMv]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

You cannot use the same discard to "clear" two Curses.

That was one of the arguments I made. Their response was that losing two levels was the cost of the first curse, and, since Weapon Becomes Evil says that once the levels have been paid, the item can be discarded "at any time", the discard isn't part of the curse, but a choice that the cursed player could make at any time, therefore being able to use the discard for any reason, even as part of going up a level.

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

You can't pause or interrupt an immediate effect without using a card which specifically cancels that effect. So, you can use a Wishing Ring to cancel Madness Takes Its Toll, or else you have to deal with it, and you can't pause it long enough to dump 2 Levels to un-Evil your Evil weapon so you can pay Madness's toll with it

I also used this argument, but they used the "at any time" text to say that it could be done while a curse was in effect, stating that nowhere in the rules does it say that one event has to be resolved before another is added. One even said that if a wandering monster is played, you don't deal with one, you deal with both at the same time, so other cards should be treated the same way >_<.

I agree with both of you, but since my roommates aren't here to defend their argument, I'm putting down the defenses they gave so that when I come back with the responses I get here, it doesn't start another hour long argument between us with them using the same rebuttals they used last time.

Also, as a note, I am the owner of the games, and I let them know that early on, but they continued the argument, even after I said that I had made my decision >_<. Those two are stubborn and won't back down easily

[Mister Ed]

Well, if Andrew and MM say you can't do it, that's really all the answer they should need, since they are the official arbiters of that sort of thing. Your friends may not have been willing to accept YOUR reasoning, but now that your reasoning is being backed up by official sources, if I they don't accept THAT... well then the real issue is that they refuse to be wrong, no matter what.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by RichardMv

I agree with both of you, but since my roommates aren't here to defend their argument, I'm putting down the defenses they gave so that when I come back with the responses I get here, it doesn't start another hour long argument between us with them using the same rebuttals they used last time.

Their defenses are irrelevant, since Andrew and I gave official rulings. If it's your set, you can, as always, make a house rule to go against our official rulings, but it would seem to me that you have no interest in doing so. . . :-)

[RichardMv]

Sorry, I just joined about 5 seconds before I posted my question, so I know nothing about who here are the experts, otherwise I wouldn't have brought up my roommates' arguments for their defense. As I said, I tried, after about 10 minutes of arguing, to tell them my decision was final, but they refused to accept it and kept things going for about another hour. I totally agree with both of you, and one of the two who argued the other side seems to accept the ruling, but I can almost guarantee the other will throw a fit again ("well, it's so vague that it's still up for debate." whine, whine, whine, etc.)

Thank you both for your input and ruling; if anything like this comes up again, I'll be sure to ask your advice ^_^

[MunchkinMan]

There's always a difference between willingly discarding a card and having to lose a card to some other effect. Losing two Levels to cause the loss of an afflicted Item is not the same as willingly discarding that Item.