[Martial Arts] Superhuman martial arts?

[AlexanderHowl]

You can take multiple levels of the same Special Exercise Perk unless the GM limits the number (there is no explicit limitation in Martial Arts or Perks beyond the normal limitation for combat perks). Heck, specific martial art styles grant you multiple levels with that style (you can explicitly take Special Exercises (Arm ST+1) up to three times with Foot Archery alone, for a total of Arm ST+3 from one martial art style). While different GMs will give different limits on the levels of a Special Exercise Perk because of concerns about realism, we are talking about campaigns with supers, so what is possible for 'realistic' martial arts is rather flexible.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

What about a martial arts based upon Enhanced Time Rate? If you are a speedster moving at twice the speed of everyone else, surely this opens some unique techniques to you.

An issue with being a Speedster with ATR is that the maneuver you really want to perform is All-Out Determined (Feint), and you're explicitly forbidden from feinting people without ATR.

If I was building a martial arts style for a speedster with ATR, most of the combat moves would start with a Committed or All-Out Attack that was meant to use up the opponent's defenses while I moved behind him, followed by the attack I really wanted to use when their ability to block and parry was compromised.

Grappling becomes more and more appealing as levels of ATR increase: at ATR 1, it takes 4 maneuvers and 2 turns to perform a set-up attack, neck grapple, head lock, throw from lock, but at ATR 3, it can be done in a single turn.

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, you can gain many of the same advantages of ATR by taking Basic Move/Enhanced Move (Ground), Compartmentalized Mind, and Extra Attack and you lack many of the disadvantages of ATR. The speedsters that I have seen tend to focus on increased Basic Speed and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike). With Basic Speed+6.0 and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike) 6, they spend 273 CP (after power modifiers) to become a whirlwind of attacks and defenses.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, you can gain many of the same advantages of ATR by taking Basic Move/Enhanced Move (Ground), Compartmentalized Mind, and Extra Attack and you lack many of the disadvantages of ATR. The speedsters that I have seen tend to focus on increased Basic Speed and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike). With Basic Speed+6.0 and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike) 6, they spend 273 CP (after power modifiers) to become a whirlwind of attacks and defenses.

Most of my speedsters use a combination of ETS, ATR, and Extra Attack (Multi-Strike) to act first, act fast, and act often. I'm kinda waiting for a player to also build a speedster so we can duke it out at high speeds. :)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can easily acquire DR 5 (Tough Skin, -40%) in realistic campaigns in GURPS using Special Exercises, so you would need something better than that to differentiate a super from a mundane.

IMO any campaign that allows ordinary people tough skin DR5 is no longer realistic. Consider what that would mean in terms of people getting stabbed by knives, now I've met adn known some pretty high dan martial artists, or perhaps more relevant people who have worked in jobs that frequently involve people waving knives at them, and none of them have ever commented on their skin having taken on the protective quality of heavy mail, or better than sharps, or of the existence of training that would allow it to do so.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A TL8 mundane martial artist can also purchase DR 60/30 for their torso for $5600 and 25 lbs using advanced body armor and trauma plates, and they can augment their fists with guns, so the superiority of a super to a mortal is questionable (which is the whole point of people like Batman). At that point, superhuman characters need something else than damage or protection to make them superior to mundanes.

Only the comapirison I was making was unarmed and innate ability, yeah sure you add tools, weapons and technology the point of balance changes.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can take multiple levels of the same Special Exercise Perk unless the GM limits the number (there is no explicit limitation in Martial Arts or Perks beyond the normal limitation for combat perks). Heck, specific martial art styles grant you multiple levels with that style (you can explicitly take Special Exercises (Arm ST+1) up to three times with Foot Archery alone, for a total of Arm ST+3 from one martial art style). While different GMs will give different limits on the levels of a Special Exercise Perk because of concerns about realism, we are talking about campaigns with supers, so what is possible for 'realistic' martial arts is rather flexible.

That's true, but as you point out a supers campaign is no longer realistic.

Don't get me wrong you want DR5 tough skin in realistic campaign go for it

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can take multiple levels of the same Special Exercise Perk unless the GM limits the number (there is no explicit limitation in Martial Arts or Perks beyond the normal limitation for combat perks).

The "normal limitation" for all perks is one. You can't take a perk more than once unless its explicitly noted as being allowed (otherwise, there'd be no need for the special symbols noting which perks you can take more than once). Special Exercises in Martial Arts has no such marker. The version in Power-Ups 2: Perks does have the notation suggesting it can be taken multiple times, but it suggests limiting characters to no more than two or three levels to produce "remotely believable characters". DR 5 is clearly beyond the level Power-Ups: Perks suggests.

[AlexanderHowl]

It is an interesting question of how realistic is multiple levels of Special Exercises (DR 1 with Tough Skin)? I would suggest that there are people how are much tougher than their body mass (which tends to correlate with HP) would suggest and that DR with Tough Skin would realistically explain their abilities. I would suggest that limiting the levels of Special Exercises is more a factor of game balance than realism (as a character with DR 5 with Tough Skin would be nearly unstoppable in a Low-Tech campaign), but that objection tends to go away in High-Tech or Powers campaigns (damage output increases so much that even DR 5 is only a minor advantage).

In a related note, I think that the cost of DR should go down when the campaign TL is above 4 in order to balance the GURPS system. I think that it would be suitable to reduce the cost of DR to 4 CP/level for campaigns of TL5-TL6, 3 CP/level for campaigns of TL7-TL8, 2 CP/level for campaigns of TL9-TL10, and 1 CP/level for campaigns TL11-TL12 due to the high damage output and armor penetration of mundane technology (enhancements and limitations would modify the new cost of DR).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

An issue with being a Speedster with ATR is that the maneuver you really want to perform is All-Out Determined (Feint), and you're explicitly forbidden from feinting people without ATR.

Can you still do set up attacks?

(TBH I've never noticed this restriction on ATR and feint in play, which tell's you how often ATR comes up in my games!)

EDIT the more I think about that restriction on Feint in ATR the more odd it is?

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

If I was building a martial arts style for a speedster with ATR, most of the combat moves would start with a Committed or All-Out Attack that was meant to use up the opponent's defenses while I moved behind him, followed by the attack I really wanted to use when their ability to block and parry was compromised.

Nice

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Grappling becomes more and more appealing as levels of ATR increase: at ATR 1, it takes 4 maneuvers and 2 turns to perform a set-up attack, neck grapple, head lock, throw from lock, but at ATR 3, it can be done in a single turn.

V.true. If you need to you can amass CP quickly with multiple grapple actions as well (well if you use TG) there's also options for ATR and inflicting pain more than once on pg25

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is an interesting question of how realistic is multiple levels of Special Exercises (DR 1 with Tough Skin)? I would suggest that there are people how are much tougher than their body mass (which tends to correlate with HP) would suggest and that DR with Tough Skin would realistically explain their abilities.

You could buy up extra HP or increase HT to model a grater than usual ability to withstand damage/injury. BUt ultimately I think that while there are people out there whe might be more able to continue functions when stabbed having the skin resist knife points is nor teh way to go.

However this is ultimately a semantic game results point! It's all just ways to increase resistance

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I would suggest that limiting the levels of Special Exercises is more a factor of game balance than realism (as a character with DR 5 with Tough Skin would be nearly unstoppable in a Low-Tech campaign), but that objection tends to go away in High-Tech or Powers campaigns (damage output increases so much that even DR 5 is only a minor advantage).

That kind of depends on weather all conflicts in a TL8 campaign are resolved using the best of TL8 hand held weapons (but I take you point DR5 is less impressive against rifles than it is against a lot of TL3 threats)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In a related note, I think that the cost of DR should go down when the campaign TL is above 4 in order to balance the GURPS system. I think that it would be suitable to reduce the cost of DR to 4 CP/level for campaigns of TL5-TL6, 3 CP/level for campaigns of TL7-TL8, 2 CP/level for campaigns of TL9-TL10, and 1 CP/level for campaigns TL11-TL12 due to the high damage output and armor penetration of mundane technology (enhancements and limitations would modify the new cost of DR).

Again I take your point, but this is a bit of a can of worms though because there are lots of advantage where this might apply (ST for example).

Probably best done by GM decision by campaign I reckon

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You can take multiple levels of the same Special Exercise Perk unless the GM limits the number (there is no explicit limitation in Martial Arts or Perks beyond the normal limitation for combat perks). Heck, specific martial art styles grant you multiple levels with that style (you can explicitly take Special Exercises (Arm ST+1) up to three times with Foot Archery alone, for a total of Arm ST+3 from one martial art style). While different GMs will give different limits on the levels of a Special Exercise Perk because of concerns about realism, we are talking about campaigns with supers, so what is possible for 'realistic' martial arts is rather flexible.

Damage Resistance is an exotic trait. MA says quite clearly that "Only mundane advantages and disadvantages are allowed; those labeled exotic or supernatural are off-limits.". It says of Damage Resistance that "Suitably limited Damage Resistance fits many kinds of cinematic campaigns.

So no, Special Exercises do not allow DR5 in a realistic campaign. They allow a GM determined level of DR in a cinematic campaign.

One might be able to make a case for someone having one level of DR(limited, crushing) if they're unusually robust. When a normal person does 1d-3 damage when they punch even that one point of DR will make them much tougher in a fight against normal people - they'll take an average of half as much damage from normal punches.