Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-21-2010, 09:47 AM   #51
lexington
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
But by the blaster can reduce the power of their innate attack slightly to get the same powers. The result is still that one guy does more damage, but one guy can attack at a range, and the characters are otherwise identical.

Perhaps the best way to put it is this: build me a melee fighter, and I'll build you a ranged fighter who does less damage, can attack at a distance, and is otherwise equivalent.
Okay but now when they meet a physical obstacle the melee guy is better and when they fight people with armor the melee guy is better.
lexington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 10:31 AM   #52
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

You mean "with just the right amount of armor" - enough that the melee guy can overcome it but the ranged guy can't.

The point here is not that the melee guy is never better. The point is that "enemies with just the right amount of armor to make the melee guy crucial" is a less common situation that "enemies at a distance."

It's the question of whether you'd trade your rifle for a sword that did lots of damage. The sword would be useful sometimes, but the rifle is preferable a solid majority of the time.

Anyway, when your melee guy is charging the armored guys, that's when my Super Soldier gets out the armor piercing rounds and/or explosives.
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 10:38 AM   #53
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

And my dad can beat up your dad.
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 10:52 AM   #54
Captain-Captain
 
Captain-Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
So far, no one's touched on grappling and incapacitation.

A brick is an all-purpose tool. A blaster is a rifle. You can't use a rifle to subdue a strong teammate who's being mind-controlled. You can't use a rifle to take down a foe carrying a ton of explosives. The ability to walk up to someone and grab him is amazingly useful, and it's often the fastest way to end a combat. (If you've ever managed to get pinned after a grapple and takedown, you know how there's nothing that says You Lose quite like a pin.)

In addition, there are times when you need to get up close. Say the bad guy stole something, and getting it back is the priority (e.g., a chemical weapon that's about to go off) -- someone needs to be able to take it away from him.

Basically, a brick can do dozens of things, while a blaster can do one thing. That's not to knock blasters -- you need a ranged attack or two in your group! -- just to say that bricks are really important as well.
Supers games don't have to be hero vs villain combats either. One of the more enjoyable Champions games I played in the mid 80s involved a burning skyscraper and the mission was rescuing people inside it.

Fliers able to carry people to safety were invaluable. Fliers who could at least scout the building to see where people were at were greatly appreciated, Bricks who could take the killing attack of fire and ignore the NND of smoke (Defense is life support) and get TO the victims were the stars of that game. Beamers who could cut open exits in the outer wall helped.

Awesome fire shooting guy was the game's doofus.
__________________
...().0...0()
.../..........\
-/......O.....\-
...VVVVVVV
..^^^^^^^

A clock running two hours slow has the correct time zero times a day.
Captain-Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 11:49 AM   #55
Darekun
 
Darekun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

One problem with the rifle argument is that modern soldiers don't have a hundred points, or even twenty points, in Flight and accessories for it, but in a supers game everybody needs a movement ability to be a contender. Just getting to the fight can be a burden otherwise.

Further, the archetype with the second-best movement… is blaster. (The first best movement is, of course, a movement specialist.) The "generic" blaster wants to be able to hover over their target while raining death and status effects, which takes maybe 50 points to account for some reasonable target mobility, and with 500-point supers I usually see more like 100 points in movement on a blaster.

Another problem with the rifle argument is that range is mostly used for sniping, which is generally contraindicated to supers GMs outside Iron Age. I don't think I've applied a range modifier for triple-digit yards in supers — it's up to a few tens of yards, or it's miles.

I see maybe 200-300 of 500 points in blasting on a blaster, but blasters often forget they need defense, so assume 200. If you also assume they don't have much else in the way of enhancements or limitations on that, taking Melee Attack: 1 instead of Increased Range: ×5(½D between the Assault Carbine and the ICW) saves ~38% of that, or ~75 points. Add one level of Enhanced Move: Air, +25 Air Move, and 5 points in misc. Maybe shift some DR and Air Move to HP for a "jouster" brick.

And all that assumes the brick has the same options for emergency AOEs and the like.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a problem. The impending doom from a jouster can draw aggro, but they're a brick now, so yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Maybe I'm missing something, as I haven't acquired Supers, but it seems as if your 'narrow range' is everything above somewhere in the middle of the D scale, and includes 3 of the 4 data points you're presenting.
I think he means it's false on one side and incoherent on the other side.
__________________
If you must feed the troll, take it to PMs.
"If it can't be turned off, it's not a feature." - Heuer's Razor
Waiting For: Vehicle Design System

Last edited by Darekun; 11-21-2010 at 12:03 PM.
Darekun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 12:09 PM   #56
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Darekun,

Let me see if I can make your point more concisely: are you arguing that ranged attacks are less useful when everyone is highly mobile? That may be right, and is probably one of the most important arguments for melee supers.

(That, and the fact that GURPS Supers lets you use the super abilities table for ST but not Innate Attack).
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 12:16 PM   #57
Darekun
 
Darekun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Let me see if I can make your point more concisely: are you arguing that ranged attacks are less useful when everyone is highly mobile?
I'd say rather melee is more useful when everyone is highly mobile. Enough to bring it back into balance with ranged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
(That, and the fact that GURPS Supers lets you use the super abilities table for ST but not Innate Attack).
Yeah, I haven't used that rule yet, can't comment on how it plays >_>
__________________
If you must feed the troll, take it to PMs.
"If it can't be turned off, it's not a feature." - Heuer's Razor
Waiting For: Vehicle Design System
Darekun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 12:44 PM   #58
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
(That, and the fact that GURPS Supers lets you use the super abilities table for ST but not Innate Attack).
I did that precisely because, in the comics, we see ST-based characters hulking out, but we rarely see a blaster do likewise. Blasters don't normally get high-end damage. The discussion here perhaps shows why.

Bill Stoddard
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 12:48 PM   #59
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I did that precisely because, in the comics, we see ST-based characters hulking out, but we rarely see a blaster do likewise.
We don't? What exactly is the human torch's nova blast?
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 01:00 PM   #60
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

Yeah. Cyclops' eye beams are also sometimes portrayed as doing ridiculous things.
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
balance, melee, supers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.