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Old 06-18-2014, 10:28 PM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Age of Sail research material

I don't know if anyone would find this useful or not, but it is material that I am glad I stumbled upon via the book THE FRIGATE DIANA by David White.

"Randall and Brent's contract, in line with the practice of the day, was to supply the completed hull only, at a rate of 14 per ton."

Actual cost of the hull turned out to be 13,788.

"Eleven months after the building was started, on 3 March 1794, Diana was launched and towed the short distance downstream to the royal Dockyard at Deptford where she was to be fitted out."

Final cost for the rigging and stores added another 2675.

Additional cost for the guns (28 x 18 lbrs) and gunners stores, was 1000.
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Old 06-18-2014, 10:52 PM   #2
hal
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail research material

Stats:

Length of keel for tonnage: 121 feet, 8.5 inches
Breadth extreme: 39 feet 3.5inches
Depth in hold: 13 feet, 9 inches
Length of lower deck: 146 feet, 3 inches

Tunnage: 999 43/94ths


Masts:

Fore Mast: 82 feet 3 Inches with 24.62" diameter
Fore Top Mast: 49 feet 4 inches with 16.5" diameter
Fore Topgallant mast: 24 feet 8 inches with 8.25" diameter

Main Mast: 82 feet 3 inches with 27.34" diameter
Main Top mast: 55 feet 6 inches with 16.5" diameter
Main Topgallant mast: 27 feet 9 inches with 9.25" diameter

Mizzen mast: 79 feet 3.5 inches with 18.5" diameter
Mizzen Top mast: 41 feet 7.5 inches with 11.5" diameter
Mizzen Topgallant mast: 20 feet 9.75 inches with 7" diameter

Bowspirit: 55 feet 6 inches with 27" diameter
Jibboom: 39 feet 7.5 inches with 11.5" diameter

The main yard was 82 feet in length, which means that it overhung the ship's sides by about 40 feet (or about 20 feet on either side).

Sail costs were actually 774 while rigging for those sails was about (not quite) twice that.

Hope this is helpful for anyone who wishes they could have some idea of the ships during the age of Nelson. :)
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Old 06-19-2014, 08:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Hope this is helpful for anyone who wishes they could have some idea of the ships during the age of Nelson. :)
How many crew did it take to keep the ship sailing, and what was the normal complement?

Bill Stoddard
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Old 06-19-2014, 12:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
How many crew did it take to keep the ship sailing, and what was the normal complement?

Bill Stoddard
Based on the name and date this is probably her - a fifth rate of 38 guns nominal, with a complement of 270-315 men.

As to minimum crew ... that may be more difficult. Most of a warship's crew were there to work the guns - you could sail with far fewer men: IIRC each gun crew had one man detailed for sail duty if it was required to change the set of the sails when in action, but I have no idea if there were other men constantly assigned to man the rigging, even in combat. Prize crews could often be only a dozen or so men, but I wouldn't be surprised if one man per gun wouldn't be a good estimate for the "ferry" crew of a ship that only needed to travel from port to port: prize crewing was normally an "emergency" style of operation.

If someone can find details for the crew of a merchantman of similar size in the same era, that might give us an idea of her minimum crew.

Last edited by The Colonel; 06-19-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 06-19-2014, 03:00 PM   #5
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If someone can find details for the crew of a merchantman of similar size in the same era, that might give us an idea of her minimum crew.
A merchantman would probably have a simpler rig, and be less concerned about being able to change it quickly.
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:25 PM   #6
hal
 
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
How many crew did it take to keep the ship sailing, and what was the normal complement?

Bill Stoddard
The book I purchased and mentioned above, doesn't really go into too much details regarding the ship in general. It was more of a "plans" book and shows more than a few "photos" of maritime models of the Diana. There were a few tables showing more information such as spar lengths and diameters, cost for Boatswain's stores, carpenter's stores, anchors, cables, etc. It went on to explain why the frigate 18 lbr guns were 8' in length instead of the usual 9' (explaining a mystery I couldn't figure out when looking at tables for armaments elsewhere in other books).

But in case this is of use to anyone else, a certain Barry Fox wrote a set of miniatures rules back in the 1980's after doing a goodly amount of research. His rule of thumb was as follows:

Making full sail from Battle sail or vice versa:
First, Second, and third rates (74 guns+): 30% of crew
38% for all else.

Weighing anchor: 20% of crew for all ships.

Prize crew: 1 Crew per every 6 Tons (Tuns) of ship plus 1 per 50 prisoners

So, if the Diana were to be a prize to be crewed, it would need about 167 men or so. Reading the information in BEAT TO QUARTERS by Command Perspective, the scale is one turn is 270 seconds (4.5 minutes). If you have half the minimum required men aboard to handle the ship, it would take twice as long to accomplish what a normal crew could. Thus, 9 minutes to go from battle sail to full sail with only 86 men.

Mind you, this isn't from a reference book, and I can't vouch for how accurate the author was - but in the absence of any other information, it is one I use.

If it matters, I could give you rough approximations for the number of Marines aboard the ship, which as a rule of thumb, was about 1 man per gun. In the case of the HMS Diana, that would have been about 38 Marines plus maybe another 2 to 3 leaders.

Addenda: I didn't quote Barry's work properly, for which I apologize at this late date. The 1 man per 6 tons is not only the number required for a prize crew per se, but also the number of crew allocated to Sailing functions. So this rule not only applies to the prize crew outright, but also to the minimum required crew to get everything done in a timely manner. If the ship had only 1/2 the crew allocated towards sailing that the ship requires, tasks would take twice as long. Turning could only be done such that it took twice the time (or half the turning radius) that could be normally achieved.

Last edited by hal; 10-25-2018 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Addenda
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:40 PM   #7
hal
 
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Ship's complement of officers and petty officers (Circa 1807)

Crew of 264 (about the closest fit to 270 for a 5th rate)

1 x Captain
3 x Lieutenant
1 x Master
1 x Surgeon
1 x Carpenter
1 x Boatswain
1 x Gunner
1 x Purser
2 x Master's mate
1 x Assistant surgeon
6 x Midshipman
1 x Clerk
1 x Schoolmaster
1 x Armourer
1 x Master at arms
1 x Carpenter's mate
1 x Caulker
1 x Ropemaker
3 x Quartermaster
1 x Boatswain's mate
1 x Sailmaker
1 x Gunner's mate
1 x Yeoman of the powder room
1 x Armourer's mate
2 x Corporal
2 x Yeoman of the sheets
1 x Coxwain
3 x Quartermaster's mate
2 x Captain of the forecastle
2 x Captain of the foretop
2 x Captain of the maintop
2 x Captain of the afterguard
2 x Captain of the waist
1 x Trumpeter
1 x Sailmaker's mate
8 x Quarter gunner
5 x Carpenter's crew
1 x Sailmaker's crew
1 x Gunsmith
1 x Steward
1 x Cook
1 x Steward's mate
1 x Chaplain

This is from Nelson's Navy The Ships, Men and Organization 1793 - 1815 by Brian Lavery with a forward by Patrick O'Brian. It has a lot of other information well worth picking the book up for - including information on Marines.
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:46 PM   #8
hal
 
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Crew requirements to handle a gun:

42 and 48 pounders: 14 men
29, 30, 32 and 36 pounders: 12 men
24 pounders: 10 men
12 and 18 pounders: 8 men
8 and 9 pounders: 6 men
4 and 6 pounders: 4 men
1/2, 1, 2 and 3 pounders: 3 men

Crew requirements to handle a carronade:
32, 36, 42, and 68 pounders: 4 men
18 an 24 pounders: 3 men
12 pounders: 2 men

13" mortar: 16 men
10" mortar: 12 men
8" mortar: 10 men
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:49 PM   #9
hal
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail research material

One thing that I found interesting, that was counter-intuitive, yet made sense after reading it, was the fact that although your ship might have all of its sail's up and pulling wind - your ship might not necessarily be going as fast as was possible. Having all of your sails on the foremast up for some ships, resulted in the ship biting more deeply into the water, and consequently slowing it down a little. Also, having the wind directly astern, and having all of your sails up (including studding sails) would rob the sails in front of the ship from wind that the mizzenmast was catching.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Age of Sail research material

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
A merchantman would probably have a simpler rig, and be less concerned about being able to change it quickly.
I was figuring that on minimum crew you are not doing anything quick or complicated with the rigging anyway - I wouldn't expect a warship to travel with that sort of level of crewing except in emergencies or on a delivery voyage in safe waters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
But in case this is of use to anyone else, a certain Barry Fox wrote a set of miniatures rules back in the 1980's after doing a goodly amount of research. His rule of thumb was as follows:

Making full sail from Battle sail or vice versa:
First, Second, and third rates (74 guns+): 30% of crew
38% for all else.

Weighing anchor: 20% of crew for all ships.

Prize crew: 1 Crew per every 6 Tons (Tuns) of ship plus 1 per 50 prisoners

So, if the Diana were to be a prize to be crewed, it would need about 167 men or so. Reading the information in BEAT TO QUARTERS by Command Perspective, the scale is one turn is 270 seconds (4.5 minutes). If you have half the minimum required men aboard to handle the ship, it would take twice as long to accomplish what a normal crew could. Thus, 9 minutes to go from battle sail to full sail with only 86 men.

Mind you, this isn't from a reference book, and I can't vouch for how accurate the author was - but in the absence of any other information, it is one I use.
Pace Mr Fox, but that seems like a lot of men for a prize crew - it's over half her regular crew! A quick google search for "frigate "prize crew"" got me an excerpt from Neptune's Militia: The Frigate South Carolina During the American Revolution By James A. Lewis, in which the South Carolina of ~40 guns was manned by a prize crew of 29 men, including 3 officers following her capture, who brought her in (admittedly only from the Delaware into New York) with somewhere between 60-100 prisoners below decks...

No idea if this link will get you what I was looking at or not...
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