Fixing GURPS Magic

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

It would be a Perk (Accessory: Scissors). You could tack on some modifiers, if you want.

While Accessory Perks are wonderful, you simply moving the argue from the no design for skills to there no design for equipment! for such 'balance' needs. (and would not be available in TL 0/1 8)

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

While Accessory Perks are wonderful, you simply moving the argue from the no design for skills to there no design for equipment! for such 'balance' needs. (and would not be available in TL 0/1 8)

As with everything in GURPS, it kind of depends on the setting.

[Mgellis]

Some thoughts...

Although there are a few spells that make me go, "what the--!?" I'm not sure the standard spellcasting system needs all that much fixing.

What is wrong with the standard spellcasting system? Some common complaints include:

* Some spells are overpriced for what they do...umm, yes, but this is mostly something that makes one roll one's eyes every once in a while; it hardly breaks a campaign

* Some magic items take FOREVER to make...umm, yes, and, considering some of the player characters who want to make magic items, this is probably a good thing.

* Some spells have loopholes that can exploited and will ruin the campaign world's economy, power structure, etc...umm, yes, but there are ways around this if a GM does not mind keeping tabs on the player characters who are mages (which he should be doing anyway, magic being what it is)

* The system is clunky and inelegant; it is not only not balanced with the advantage system, etc., it is not even balanced with itself! And it looks like it was Frankensteined together out of everything from actual folklore to bad fantasy novels that were then turned into even worse syndicated television shows...umm, yes, but like the overpriced spells, this is really more annoying than anything else.

While these problems do exist, I wonder how serious they are in practice. Has anyone ever actually had a game world ruined by overpriced spells or even the ones like Essential Earth which, when combined with Earth to Stone, could create long term economic chaos?

Unfortunately, the standard spellcasting system is intertwined with so many of the settings that overhauling the system to fix the above problems, and others, would require a massive overhaul of many of the world books, too. Imagine rewriting Banestorm so that everything "wrong" (whatever that means) with the spellcasting system that's in the book is "fixed" (whatever that means). Combine that with the reasons Kromm gave why we won't see all the spells rewritten as advantages, and I suspect it's just not going to happen.

Fortunately, my gut feeling is that the problems with the standard spellcasting system aren't that serious. Most of it works fine. Much of it isn't even all that quirky. And most of the quirky parts are just quirky, not really unbalanced.

In fact, I think we've actually seen the "overhaul" of the magic system with books like Thaumatology and Magical Styles. The basic spells are what they are (and that's mostly okay, anyway), but the system now contains a rich body of new crunch that lets GMs tweak the system almost any way he wants. And that's assuming he's using a setting (like Yrth or something involving the Cabal) where he feels like he has to use the standard spellcasting system at all.

A complete overhaul of the existing spellcasting system? Nope. We're probably not ever going to see that. Rules that let each GM tackle the parts of the spellcasting system he personally does not like? They're already here. :)

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

While these problems do exist, I wonder how serious they are in practice. Has anyone ever actually had a game world ruined by overpriced spells or even the ones like Essential Earth which, when combined with Earth to Stone, could create long term economic chaos?

While I've never had a game world ruined by it, I can see it happening. Some gaming groups will wonder why they cannot just buy a half dozen sheep, a half dozen Hair Growth amulets, and corner the world's wool market.

The traditional response might be "You can't do that. Killing goblins is the only acceptable way to make money." The same response to anyone who notices that they can make a fortune in D&D by turning a thousand 10' ladders into two thousand 10' poles. A lot of players (myself included) would wince at a game world that arbitrarily prevents logical*, but non-adventury, schemes from working.

If there's an in game reason, such as a powerful wizards' guild that stomps on people cheapening magic with such demeaning uses, I can go with that. However, I want to know that Men in Black [Robes] will appear to stop my plans, not just GM fiat. That said, I can also agree with a group "We don't want to play a Banestorm/The Fugitive crossover, so let's not go that route."

* Not that the ladders-to-poles trick actually makes any sense, but it does follow from the game's own assumptions.

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

Unfortunately, the standard spellcasting system is intertwined with so many of the settings that overhauling the system to fix the above problems, and others, would require a massive overhaul of many of the world books, too. Imagine rewriting Banestorm so that everything "wrong" (whatever that means) with the spellcasting system that's in the book is "fixed" (whatever that means).

I'm not an anti-GURPS Magic person, but I think this is less of a problem for people than you might think. GURPS Banestorm barely mentions much about the actual magic system. There is some stuff about the proportion of Magery in the population, how interdimensional gate magic is really hard, and some fleshed-out NPCs. All of these are pretty easy to gloss over when switching to, say, a Powers-Based system. That's the only major setting with the standard magic system in GURPS 4E. Roma Arcana, a minor setting, uses the Ritual Magic system and some clerical magic, which are derivatives of the standard system, but that setting is also enough of a mash-up that changing a few things wouldn't matter.

[Pagan]

I've been running a Gurps fantasy game for over 12 years now using the standard magic system. It has worked wonderfully for me all that time. I've tweaked here and there with how spells were purchased (adding affinities and stuff like that) but still used Gurps Magic and the Grimoire. After Gurps Thaumaturgy and Thaumaturgy Magical styles came out, I revamped my established styles to those guide lines, making smaller more concentrated styles (80 - 100 spells each with perks and advantages). This was extremely well received by my players, even though they lost the ability to potentially cast every spell in the book.

I don't think Gurps Magic needs fixing. It needs what every other aspect of the game needs and that is a vigilant GM to ensure that what goes into his game or campaign is what he/she wants to be in there.

[ehrbar]

Originally Posted by RyanW

While I've never had a game world ruined by it, I can see it happening. Some gaming groups will wonder why they cannot just buy a half dozen sheep, a half dozen Hair Growth amulets, and corner the world's wool market.

The traditional response might be "You can't do that. Killing goblins is the only acceptable way to make money." The same response to anyone who notices that they can make a fortune in D&D by turning a thousand 10' ladders into two thousand 10' poles. A lot of players (myself included) would wince at a game world that arbitrarily prevents logical*, but non-adventury, schemes from working.

Or, of course, you can have the wool, grown by magic, disappear as it is sheared, as suggested in The Renegade Mage's Unofficial GURPS Magic Spell Errata. (New slogan: It's not arbitrary if it's suggested in PDF format!)

The other logical answer is that this is already being done, entire kingdoms are already getting their wool from a handful of sheep, and most of the world's shepherds are instead raising hair sheep (which don't grow thick fleeces like wool sheep) for meat and leather instead. The follow-on effects are that wool is much cheaper while meat and leather are somewhat cheaper, so the economy is less medieval.