[Magic] Spell costs capped by Magery

[DemiBenson]

I just yesterday realized that there are a bunch of spells I've been playing wrong for ages: spells with levels of effect ("Magery and Effect", Magic, p.9)

I've been playing missile spells correctly, but I think that's because they're always listed with that awkward phrasing. But other ones like Continual Light, Minor Healing, Jump, and Create Servant are all "leveled" in some fashion, and it's not obvious whether those qualify under the "Magery and Effect" rule. And the spell's stat block doesn't help either, since it uses the same key phrase ("Cost") as unleveled ones do, whereas area spells make it obvious by using "Base cost".

So, rather than just whining, I'll suggest a slight modification (for, you know, the next major edition...): for those spells that are limited by levels of Magery, instead of "Cost", use "Leveled Cost" in the stat block and only include the cost of a single level's worth.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ectropy

I just yesterday realized that there are a bunch of spells I've been playing wrong for ages: spells with levels of effect ("Magery and Effect", Magic, p.9)

I've been playing missile spells correctly, but I think that's because they're always listed with that awkward phrasing. But other ones like Continual Light, Minor Healing, Jump, and Create Servant are all "leveled" in some fashion,

.....but only Minor Healing and Jump can be cast at higher effect with Magery beyond 3. There need to be uniform levels of effect tied to energy input and not just multiple levels.

That is, there must be such phrasing as to say that you get x levels of effect for y input and 2x and 3x for 2y and 3y. Minor Healing meets this, giving 1 pt of healing per 1 pt on energy.

Continual Light doesn't meet the criteria. "Moonlight", "torch" and "noonday sun" are not 1x, 2x, and 3x. The different types of Servant you can Create for different costs are even better examples of qualitative rather than quantitative differences.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

.....but only Minor Healing and Jump can be cast at higher effect with Magery beyond 3. There need to be uniform levels of effect tied to energy input and not just multiple levels.

That is, there must be such phrasing as to say that you get x levels of effect for y input and 2x and 3x for 2y and 3y. Minor Healing meets this, giving 1 pt of healing per 1 pt on energy.

Continual Light doesn't meet the criteria. "Moonlight", "torch" and "noonday sun" are not 1x, 2x, and 3x. The different types of Servant you can Create for different costs are even better examples of qualitative rather than quantitative differences.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

From current wording alone, it's not immediately obvious which spells are leveled in the way where Magery may or may not cap the level of effect. I know that missile spells were, partly because of the awkward wording, and partly because I'd read some discussion about how it was implemented that way in 4th edition specifically to prevent low-power mages from casting huge fireballs.

Because some spells list 3, 4, or 5 levels, until now it wasn't clear that those were supposed to be using that rule. I'd certainly never read it that Minor/Major Healing was capped at Power Investiture for priests.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by ectropy

From current wording alone, it's not immediately obvious which spells are leveled in the way where Magery may or may not cap the level of effect.

To which I say it is. If the spell can list its cost as 1-3 or 1-4 and then explain succinctly what you can get for a given cost investment then it definitely counts. If it has to explain, using words, what you get at each investment of energy then it probably shouldn't (see Gift of Tongues for an example). I only say probably because I haven't looked at all the spells in Magic, and the reason why it shouldn't is that you have to work out what a new level means.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

To which I say it is. If the spell can list its cost as 1-3 or 1-4 and then explain succinctly what you can get for a given cost investment then it definitely counts. If it has to explain, using words, what you get at each investment of energy then it probably shouldn't (see Gift of Tongues for an example). I only say probably because I haven't looked at all the spells in Magic, and the reason why it shouldn't is that you have to work out what a new level means.

Here's (roughly) why I think it didn't make the right kind of sense before now:
Spells like Minor Healing allow a small range of effects (1-3 points, same amount as HP restored), have penalties for use on yourself, and have further penalties for successive castings in the same day. If you combine this with the Magery and Effect rule, it makes Minor Healing almost worthless for low-level mages - a Magery 1 wizard still has to buy the prereq spells (and 15 points for Magery 1, and a decent IQ), but he only gets to cast it safely once per day and it's even less useful if he has to cast on himself. He'd be far better off learning First-Aid to a decent level.

With Major Healing being VH spells (with more prereqs), it may give better results (barely: 2 HP vs 1 HP) but it's even harder to bring to a useful level.

That Minor and Major Healing have different number of listed levels (1-3 vs 1-4) makes it seem like those two spells are designed to not use the same mechanism, that they were designed to be stylistically different with different maximums... which contradicts the Magery and Effect rule.

It's the inconsistency of the maximum level of spells and the associated wording that made me not grasp how the rule was meant to be applied. e.g. Vigor, Might, Clumsiness and several other BC spells can be cast up to 5 levels, but Hinder has a max of 4 (presumably so you can onlyt reduce someone's Move to 1, but that only works for average people, not frail weaklings, who would be reduced to 0, or serious athletes, who would still have ok Move), and Climbing has a max of 3 (possibly because it affects skills, not attributes).

What I'm trying to say is: as written, the information was not clear, and I proposed a way that SJG could, in the future, clarify.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by ectropy

What I'm trying to say is: as written, the information was not clear, and I proposed a way that SJG could, in the future, clarify.

I think you may be missing something important. As per Magic p.9:

The upper limit is the higher of the standard number of levels or the caster’s Magery level.

So even a Magery 1 caster can cast Minor Healing at the 3 FP level and Major Healing at the 4 FP level. It's only if your Magery exceeds the normal limit that you gain extra capacity (for example, Magery 4+ with Minor Healing).

The other thing is that the "levels" of Continual Light or Create Servant don't work like the levels of Fireball. Fireball is 1 FP/level, while Continual Light and the like offer different castings for different costs, not really levels. It's similar to the way that Crushing Attack is 5 pt/level while Claim to Hospitality is 1, 2, 5, or 10 points depending on the options.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by RyanW

So even a Magery 1 caster can cast Minor Healing at the 3 FP level and Major Healing at the 4 FP level. It's only if your Magery exceeds the normal limit that you gain extra capacity (for example, Magery 4+ with Minor Healing).

Or to give an example like the one on p.9, all the little magelings with Magery 1-3 can only spend 1-3 on Minor Healing and 1-4 on Major Healing, but the Archmage with Magery 15 can spend up to 15 on both Minor Healing and Major Healing.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I think you may be missing something important. As per Magic p.9:
The upper limit is the higher of the standard number of levels or the caster’s Magery level.

You're right, I did miss that. One little word makes all the difference.

Originally Posted by RyanW

The other thing is that the "levels" of Continual Light or Create Servant don't work like the levels of Fireball. Fireball is 1 FP/level, while Continual Light and the like offer different castings for different costs, not really levels. It's similar to the way that Crushing Attack is 5 pt/level while Claim to Hospitality is 1, 2, 5, or 10 points depending on the options.

I understand that just fine - I put in those as examples of what could be seen as leveled spells that probably weren't what SJG intended to be covered by the rule.