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Old 03-05-2019, 03:09 PM   #11
Dalin
 
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
I concede it's a fair value at $75, It was a good value when I found it for sale at $50. But it's a hard sell for a new player at $75. We'd buy extra copies for the table at $40, probably not at $75.
True. It's pricy, especially for folks who are just dipping their toes in the water (as many of my players are). Most groups I know of purchase one box set (for the GM or to share among floating GMs) and then a bunch of PDFs. It's great to have the option to buy the player's bundle now too.
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:57 AM   #12
philreed
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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We'd buy extra copies for the table at $40, probably not at $75.
We would lose money if we sold the game at a $40 MSRP. Games are expensive to create, expensive to manufacture, and expensive to ship. We charge the best price that we can; unfortunately, demand for this and other GURPS titles isn't so high that we can bring our overall costs down.

How do we change that? Introduce the game to new players.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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We would lose money if we sold the game at a $40 MSRP. Games are expensive to create, expensive to manufacture, and expensive to ship. We charge the best price that we can; unfortunately, demand for this and other GURPS titles isn't so high that we can bring our overall costs down.

How do we change that? Introduce the game to new players.
Man don't take this the wrong way, I'm not here to bash on my favorite game, I'm 100% invested in getting GURPS into more gamers hands. That's a hard task to put on my shoulders with a $75 buy-in. I understand that publishing is a volume proposition. Given the marketing I've seen from you guys, 100% of that volume is driven by guys like me getting new players excited about the game. Please give us a version of the rules we can convince a new player to invest in. Maybe the Characters and Exploits books, possibly spells, closer to a $40 price point, doesn't need a box, I bet just about every table with a Dungeon Fantasy box would love to have extra copies of those books.

I know you've heard similar complaints before but you sell 0% of the books you never print.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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Man don't take this the wrong way, I'm not here to bash on my favorite game, I'm 100% invested in getting GURPS into more gamers hands.
You saw the $30 add-on for the Player's Bundle, yes?
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
Man don't take this the wrong way, I'm not here to bash on my favorite game, I'm 100% invested in getting GURPS into more gamers hands. That's a hard task to put on my shoulders with a $75 buy-in. I understand that publishing is a volume proposition. Given the marketing I've seen from you guys, 100% of that volume is driven by guys like me getting new players excited about the game. Please give us a version of the rules we can convince a new player to invest in. Maybe the Characters and Exploits books, possibly spells, closer to a $40 price point, doesn't need a box, I bet just about every table with a Dungeon Fantasy box would love to have extra copies of those books.

I know you've heard similar complaints before but you sell 0% of the books you never print.
A lot of video games are right around that price (or more) and I don't think $75 is too high of a price. Buying all the D&D books is well over $100 at MSRP.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

Let's see what people are willing to pay! I have two other hobbies besides RPGs. Converting from CAD to USD and rounding to the nearest $10:
Argentine Tango: A pair of very average dance shoes costs around $150, and you usually go through at least a pair a year. Group lessons cost about $150/session, and you'll need at least three sessions before you can go dancing (that takes about a year, so $450/year); after that, private lessons cost on the order of $50 to $60 an hour, and most people do an hour at least every other week (lowball, that's about $1,300/year). Entry at the door is $10 for a cheap night out (fancy balls cost a lot more), and most dancers go out no less than once a week (call it $500/year), while many dance two or three times a week. So tango involves $1,100 to $3,200 a year for typical people . . . completely ignoring the price of suitable clothing, taxis to/from events, and things like bottled water when you get hot dancing. All that still makes you a "casual"; "fanatics" go to festivals one or more times a year, or make an annual pilgrimage to Buenos Aires, so add a couple thousand bucks for them.

Mixology: A home bar is hard to nail down, but keeping it stocked with base liquors (bourbon, brandy, dark and light rum, gin, rye, tequila, and vodka, plus a few personal favorites like cachaça, genever, Irish whisky, pisco, rhum agricole, or whatever) plus key liqueurs runs to the $400 to $500 a year range. Mixers add up, too – they're cheap per bottle, but you use a whole lot more, so count on at least $100 to $150 a year there. Then there's beer and wine, which run equal to your liquor budget. Plus occasional purchases like bitters, garnishes, and tools, probably to the tune of $100+ a year. Just keeping that bar stocked is $1,000 to $1,200 a year before you opt to venture into Champagne, rare Scotch, collections of amari, etc.
So I'd call a $1,100/year budget for a hobby for a working adult pretty typical. That's 14-15 $75 boxed sets, or perhaps fewer with shipping.

We're not talking about a rich person here, either. I'm an editor and writer in the hobby-games biz! It suffices to say that I'm by far the lowest earner among my local peers of comparable age (51 years old) and education (postgraduate), and due to a recent marital breakup, cash is tight. I can still afford those hobbies, though, so I'm willing to bet that at least a few people can afford $75.

If I'm betting wrong . . . well, that's going to tell us a lot about not just the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game but also about GURPS.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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So I'd call a $1,100/year budget for a hobby pretty typical.
That's not unusual at all. I know people who spend more than that in three months going out to coffee and drinks with friends.

One of the things I constantly have to remind myself of: Prices ten and twenty years ago have no relevant impact on prices today. I frequently stop and say "oh, right, the future" when looking at a new book or game.
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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That's not unusual at all. I know people who spend more than that in three months going out to coffee and drinks with friends.
Definitely. I'm talking about my habits as a not-very-rich editor!

My girlfriend, who is a director at work, earns 40% more than me, has only one hobby (tango), and actually pays less rent than me. Consequently, she thinks nothing at all about ordering in takeout two to four times a week. I know she's dropping over $1,000 (again, in USD) a quarter – and I suspect much more – on that. She also takes taxis everywhere instead of owning a car, and pays probably $700+ a quarter for that. Her day-to-day lifestyle costs two or three times as much as all my hobbies put together!

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One of the things I constantly have to remind myself of: Prices ten and twenty years ago have no relevant impact on prices today. I frequently stop and say "oh, right, the future" when looking at a new book or game.
Or anything, really. I got into dance a mere six years ago; door fees are now 50% higher, lessons cost about 40% more, and shoes are now 33% more expensive. I got seriously, aggressively into mixology more like eight years ago, and the average bottle in Canada has increased "only" 15-20%. But I'd totally expect a hobby game to cost three times the price it had when I got into gaming in 1979; that's a pretty typical inflation rate for a nonessential purchase. From the "birth of GURPS" (1986) to present, the factor is between 2 and 2.5.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Let's see what people are willing to pay!
There is a vast difference between what I'm willing to pay*... and what I am capable of paying that week.

Which is why (in the other thread) I was questioning the wisdom of directly competing with Nordlond (due to project end dates).



* For instance if I had the dosh, I'd probably pick up a whole nother box set to have the Player's Bundle for "free" and an errata'd Exploits (and whatever else gets errate'd). Also another set of Cardboard Heroes...
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:56 PM   #20
Kromm
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Default Re: DFRPG Monsters 2 and reprint of the Box set on Kickstarter now!

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There is a vast difference between what I'm willing to pay*... and what I am capable of paying that week.
I understand.

At the same time, that's a question of cash flow, not cash. You almost need a credit card to back a Kickstarter, so the tool is already there. I'm a cash-poor writer with a feeble credit rating, yet my banks have chased me down to give me three cards and two lines of credit. As long as I pay everything off by month's end, there's no penalty for overextending myself for a few weeks.

On the other hand, I do recognize that some people are strict about staying on budget and not giving themselves a loan from next pay period or next month. Please do realize that I'm not trying to pass judgment here; I'm just providing an alternative point of view.
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