Unarmed Parry Is Unarmed Block?

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm pretty sure that's the Cross Parry in MA, but I haven't got a copy of 4e MA yet and my 3e one's not handy atm.

I have never heard of "Cross Parry" (well, for GURPS) and I do have my 3e copy of MA handy. ;) If it is in there, for me its one of those "I've been missing it for nearly two decades now." rules. XD

Originally Posted by Dalillama

In GURPS, a Block is what you do with the Shield skill, and a Parry is what you do with another combat skill.

Yes... but the question is why is there such significant distinction? Why aren't the few actual differences simply regarded as being a special circumstance for "parrying" with a Shield?

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Because you can put a shield between you and, e.g.a dragon's breath or a bunch of arrows, which you can't do with a weapon.

Except you can... it just usually isn't very effective because most weapons aren't large enough and/or shaped properly to offer such protection, or human reflexes aren't going to be fast enough.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

That's what the weapon breakage rules and the unarmed parrying of armed attack rules are for.

Not really connecting that to what I said; there are Weapon Breakage rules, Unarmed Parry Rules that take into account a limb being damaged, and there are also Shield Damage rules. My points are that there would be times when I'd rather take it in the arm than the face, and that I am starting to wonder if two distinct things aren't so distinct. If a Block should really just be a Special kind of Parry, usually only effective in realistic settings when performed using a skill and weapon combination that favors them.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

There's no pressing reason not to do that, really, but if it's been this way for 5+ editions (counting Man to Man as an edition) and ~30 years, I don't foresee it changing soon.

I understand and agree; still a fund topic of discussion for a message board, and who knows? Something could come of it eventually: after all in 4e HP is based on ST and not HT, FP is based on HT and not ST, and both Will and Perception are handled as secondary characteristics instead of IQ modified by an Advantage... unlike in 3e (and to my knowledge, older editions as well).

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I have never heard of "Cross Parry" (well, for GURPS) and I do have my 3e copy of MA handy. ;) If it is in there, for me its one of those "I've been missing it for nearly two decades now." rules. XD

I'm pretty sure it was introduced to GURPS at the 4e edition of Martial Arts. I remember thinking it was new as I read it there.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Just to be clear for the others, all of your suggestions are your house rules.

Yes, I really should have prefaced the post with that.

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

That sounds like a dodge that uses the attack skill as a secondary skill much like Acrobatic Dodge.

That's probably a much better way to do it - when I do a playtest, I'll try that way (actually, I'll probably do some probability work to subsume the two rolls into a single one).

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I would be interested if you ever gave the rules a real playtest, or even just played them out on a large number of fights in solitary mode.

I've been designing some characters for a solitary DF playthrough, actually, so I might use those to playtest some of those rules.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

In essence:

Block = a cold stop with a shield or other, usually flat implement that absorbs the damage for you.

Parry = any other defense that involves at least brief contact with a weapon or part of the body, including unarmed counters that involve turning away or shifting weight.

Dodge = any defense that involves no contact.

A block that succeeds by more than shield DB doesn't cause damage to the shield, though...

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

A block that succeeds by more than shield DB doesn't cause damage to the shield, though...

Yeah. Again don't currently have the 4e rules in front of me, but the wording in 3e basically makes a well rolled block work like a Parry that uses your shield (and Block score). This is why I am wondering if the "universal" Defenses should be

Dodge: Any defense that involves no contact.

Parry: Any defense that involves at least brief contact with a weapon or part of the body, including unarmed counters that involve turning away or shifting weight.

With Blocking showing up as a form of parrying. Something like

Block: A form of parrying that (relative to standard parry) focuses more on safely absorbing the damage from an attack than turning it away or shifting weight. Usually involves something like a shield.

If we keep it as a co-equal, then I start to wonder if an earlier point I made might be valid and "Block" should be available where appropriate, including where it would be less than effective if the campaign is detailed enough. Something like

Block: Interposing something between the attack and yourself to redirect the attack and/or absorb the damage for you through manipulating the interposed object (if you're only moving yourself, see Dodging and Cover).

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That situation has not changed at all since Man to Man in 1985. Of course, there have been a few changes in thinking about how to represent the focus of specific fighting styles; e.g., the Boxing skill used to give a skill-based Dodge bonus, but now the Boxing style recommends higher Basic Speed for dodging . . . and you could essentially add back the Dodge bonus by tacking on Skill Adaptation (Boxing works as Acrobatics for Acrobatic Dodge). But the basic explanations of Block, Dodge, and Parry haven't changed at all.

I have trouble remembering back that far. Not that I didn't play it a lot. I also got the rest of The Fantasy Trip and got my friends to play it with me. For the life of me, however, I can't remember the details.

They say the memory is the first to go.... What was i taking about? :)

[simply Nathan]

The Fantasy Trip was basically Banestorm+Dungeon Fantasy, but without clerics, healing spells, or Active Defenses. Also more granularity.

[dataweaver]

Are there any weapons that both Block and Parry? Because if not, I could definitely see a case for lumping blocks and parries together into one thing and attributing the differences between them to the properties of the weapon being used to defend.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Are there any weapons that both Block and Parry? Because if not, I could definitely see a case for lumping blocks and parries together into one thing and attributing the differences between them to the properties of the weapon being used to defend.

Even if we came up with several examples of weapons that can do both, isn't it still possible that Parry and Block could best be handled with one being a variant of the other?

[dataweaver]

Let's see if any such weapons exist first. If they don't, then the question is moot.