Alternate enchantment system - brainstorming

[Refplace]

Not another Enchanting thread!
Oh wait, this one started by Bruno. Hmm better check it out.

[Stegyre]

Originally Posted by Lamech

I'm always a fan of making magic items with the gadget rules, and then having 200 hours = 1 cp towards a gadget.

This is similar to my thinking. GURPS has done a wonderfully wonky job of pricing various benefits with the very detailed advantages/modifiers system. Why that goes completely by the wayside when it comes to enchantment has never made any sense to me.

"Pricing" enchantments (whether we are talking about market price or creation cost) based on the CP value just seems so painfully obvious. From that point, you can then play with what is the appropriate energy, time, and/or money cost per CP.


I'll be interested in seeing what Bruno comes up with.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

Interesting suggestion, ULFGARD, but I wouldn't know if anybody would trade most of their magic perks for the ability to do quick enchantment. Down-time being stretchable in a typical fantasy campaign makes this less desirable than what one might think, especially when used simultaneously with your skill penalty option.

Edit: Or did you mean 1 point/level advantage? The number of perks is rather limited and I would rather pay 2 points/level than use up all my possible perks.

It could be done either way. I designed this perk with an enchanters guild in mind, and incorporated it into the style after the magical schools book came out. But it could also be done as an advantage. If so, without the restrictions of magical perks on spells, I'd probably charge 2 points/level for it, capping it as I did at 2x magery (with the same energy limitations). This would be reasonable given that the OP wasn't about dedicated enchanters, but rather regular PCs.

[Kuroshima]

Ideas:

• The main caster (not his assistants) can put Magery times more energy into the item.
• NPC Enchanters have Magery 2-3
• PC enchanters have Magery 4-6
• Assistants need to know the spell to enchant and the Enchant spell
• Assistants need to roll their enchant skill too. On a failure, the item is quirked, on a critical failure, the item is destroyed.
• Circle directors roll at -1 per assistant, as per the usual rules

If we assume that the 500 energy/6 weeks, and assuming 5 working days per 7 day week, it means that he's putting 16.67 energy/day. If we assume that he works 7 days a week, this means that he's putting 11.9 energy/day. I never liked to calibrate on 5 working days per week, as PCs tend to be obstinate and ask to work 7 days a week.

Assuming Magery 6, this means that the base rate is 2.

How long would then a traditional circle (as per GURPS Magic) need for this, using this system?

Circle Master->Magery 3
5 assistants->Magery 2
10 energy/day, working 5 days per week
Total enchanting time: 10 weeks
Keep in mind that expanding the circle will not only reduce the skill of the main enchanter, but also greatly increase the chances of crit failure

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Ideas:

• The main caster (not his assistants) can put Magery times more energy into the item.
• NPC Enchanters have Magery 2-3
• PC enchanters have Magery 4-6
• Assistants need to know the spell to enchant and the Enchant spell
• Assistants need to roll their enchant skill too. On a failure, the item is quirked, on a critical failure, the item is destroyed.
• Circle directors roll at -1 per assistant, as per the usual rules

If we assume that the 500 energy/6 weeks, and assuming 5 working days per 7 day week, it means that he's putting 16.67 energy/day. If we assume that he works 7 days a week, this means that he's putting 11.9 energy/day. I never liked to calibrate on 5 working days per week, as PCs tend to be obstinate and ask to work 7 days a week.

Assuming Magery 6, this means that the base rate is 2.

How long would then a traditional circle (as per GURPS Magic) need for this, using this system?

Circle Master->Magery 3
5 assistants->Magery 2
10 energy/day, working 5 days per week
Total enchanting time: 10 weeks
Keep in mind that expanding the circle will not only reduce the skill of the main enchanter, but also greatly increase the chances of crit failure

Before my current system, I did something similar (minus the circle bits). Adding in the circle wouldn't significantly change my experience -- this DOES work well. It's a good system.

[Refplace]

Energy Cap modifiers
I like the 1 point per day per level of Magery option.
How about we add to that for a good Ritual Space though?
Maybe use the skill bonuses from Path Magic towards increasing that cap instead of a skill bonus? And/or use those bonuses to offset the penalties for multiple enchanters? I give Slow and Sure the same penalty as Q&D becasue I like limited groups too. though thier are ways to counter it, especially for Divine enchantment just becasue I want psycho cultists to be able to make powerful evil items :)

One problem with high levels of magery increasing the cap though is if each mage can do that more mages on a project is a LOT more attractive. So maybe just use the lead mages magery for the cap.

Another thing I like harkens back to Humanx and is in Powers now. Use Combining Powers from GURPS Powers (I also like familiars with magery but limited spell lists who can still assist).
Besides possibly increasing the energy cap this has the advantage of combining and boosting skills. So your goal of an item made by an Enchanter that boosts his ability is very doable.

So with a good Ritual Space and possibly an assistant or two you can get near your goal. Depends on levels of magery in the mix.
And I really do like materials for magic, either as a raw bonus of energy or allowing the cap to be increased. So make a dragon slaying sword in your Ritual Space with the sword buried in the heart of a dragon and it enchants faster.

And the idea above about sacrificing skill for power has possibilities too. How about lower effective skill for a boost to the energy cap? But have to decide how much to use and stick with it for the whole enchant so we keep the number of rolls down.
Also of course the cap should be limited by the casters Fp or ER limit, possibly powerstones but that gets into extra bookkeeping.

EDIT: Oh add in your energy cap cannot exceed your Thaumatology skill. It wont often be an issue but I like the idea that you have to know this skill well to make good magic items and do it well.

[johndallman]

An idea from a homebrew D&D enchantment system I've used extensively: Limiting an enchantment (as per Limit, M.68) isn't an extra enchantment, adding to cost. It's a more restricted way of doing enchantment, that reduces the cost. That way, people actually bother to use it.

[Refplace]

Enchant Skill changes
I never really warmed up to the Enchant skill myself.
The preq count was stiff which I was fine with but tended to make enchanters versatile mages rather then a good option for specialty mages being able to enchant limited types of items.

But I like some enchanting skills in the mix to represent additional training.
1) Thaumatology/Theology can be a stabilizing skill so reduces crit fail risks.
2) Ritual Circle skill which can be used instead of IQ to form circles (combing powers) would allow larger circles for those who invest in it.
*** Enchant Spell, M/VH Cost 1 duration day and can be maintained.
This spell creates a reserve of power which the caster and assistants can slowly fill and links an item to absorb the power.
Penalty of 1 per person after the first and must be maintained for the duration of the enchantment. Obviously this counts as a spell "On" when using other spells.
People may leave the circle but none can be added without recasting the spell. Recasting the spell for an ongoing Enchantment is risky as a failure results in the loss of all previously accumulated energy and possible quirking of the item.
Prequsites Lend ST plus 10 spells of any 1 College or at least 5 spells in each of two colleges.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by johndallman

An idea from a homebrew D&D enchantment system I've used extensively: Limiting an enchantment (as per Limit, M.68) isn't an extra enchantment, adding to cost. It's a more restricted way of doing enchantment, that reduces the cost. That way, people actually bother to use it.

Yeah, like Name this is one I have used too.

[Bruno]

I'm noticing a definitely trend towards folks linking spell skill, or magery level, or some other character quality, to controlling energy accumulation per cycle.

EG: Magery level energy per day, some function of Enchanting skill per day/week, etc.

This produces a dramatic difference in enchantment time between (for example) a Magery 1 caster vs a Magery 3 or a Magery 6.. and also provides some sharply diminishing returns - going back to the 500 energy item: improving from Magery 1 to Magery 2 halves enchanting time, but halving again takes Magery 4, etc. Magery 1 guy might take 500 days to produce it, while Magery 6 guy takes 83.

(ignore Magery requirements for Enchant at this time, the spells probably going to be rewritten under this system anyways).

I'm also not seeing easy places to fold in extra skill rolls to reduce the risk.

So try turning this on its head:

It takes five 8 hr working days and a roll against Enchant to "accumulate" 100 energy (numbers subject to change). Failure wastes your five days, and chains of failures create (or exacerbate) quirks. If you manage to alternate every failure with a success while making your sword, you'll take a while but get no quirks. If you get a run of bad luck you get a cursed sword or at least a very quirky one.

Critical failure spoils everything, and calls for a check against Thaumatology to shut down the process safely. If this "saving throw" fails, something drastic happens (I would generally suggest an alchemical lab failure type result, but tinker to suit), otherwise all that happens is you loose your accumulated energy and possibly waste raw materials involved.

Critical success calls for something I'm not sure about yet - double energy which you can then turn into extra effective skill or something if you end up with surplus, as per the usual rules?

Power/effective skill of the item is based on your skill with the relevant spell (eg Fireball for a fireball wand). Note that at no point are you rolling against "the lower of Enchant and spell" or something.

You can always "shut down" an enchanting session tidily if the wizard gets a chance to do so tidily (this is how things get "tied off" at the end of the day after all). A project can be shelved indefinitely, if shut down correctly. Interruptions mid-enchantment might cause all kinds of excitement, I haven't decided yet. A big kaboom is right out or my players will manage to blow each other up.

A skill 12 enchanter takes 6.7 tries (on average) to pull off a 500 energy enchantment - @ 4 days per try that's ~26.8 days (usually 26 sometimes 28), and if that's 5 days per try that's ~33.5 days (usually 35, sometimes 30). He'll get a quirk occasionally, but he generally produces unquirked items. This is probably a necessity to make this some kind of profession.

Compare a skill 16+ enchanter, who enjoys a 9.3% chance of a critical success, and takes an average of ~4.7 rolls to accumulate 500 energy, or ~18.6 days for 4 days/roll and ~23.3 days for 5 days/roll.

The skill 16+ enchanter makes items in 69% of the time of the skill 12 enchanter, instead of 50%, 33%, or the like, and the results are neutral to Magery vs raw skill vs IQ vs whatever.

I've decided I like 5 day cycles, with this setup. But I need to find a way to add assistants that's modestly beneficial without becoming assumed the way they have in the standard system.