[Spaceships] Total life support

[Fish]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Granted, but that's not life support ...

Never said it was full life support. I'm just suggesting that even in an FTL setting, there's room for some basics.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Firefly - no FTL, but the setting behaves as though it were FTL. The entire headcount of Serenity is fed from what strongly resembles a C20 domestic kitchen (although it could pass for C19 since I don't recall a fridge). For some reason they mostly live off tinned food, which is odd given that they keep landing on low tech planets and fresh food should be way cheaper and easier to get hold off.

All technology in Firefly is powered solely by the energy generated by Joss Whedon's furiously waving hand, so analysis of the series in terms of any science known to us tends to yield nothing but headaches.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

All technology in Firefly is powered solely by the energy generated by Joss Whedon's furiously waving hand, so analysis of the series in terms of any science known to us tends to yield nothing but headaches.

I hear you in truth. Although the sight of Jewel Staite going all Nigella on a Strawberry makes it almost worthwhile.

[Crakkerjakk]

Plus it's a comfort thing, for any trip over a week (eyeballed time period) in duration. Actual food is going to be preferable to freeze-dried stuff, even if it is fish and flavored algae. You gotta add water to the dehydrated stuff anyways, so if the food production technology (algae tanks, aquariums, etc) is dependable, I can see it being adopted for ships that take long-ish trips, with an emergency backup larder of freeze dried food.

[Trachmyr]

One of the problems is with the level of abstraction used in spaceships. With the volumes given, the Garden open spaces work out to 230 pounds per square foot, while refrence sites online for roof-top gardens tend to average at 40lbs. per square foot. Even with some weight increase for structure (which is omitted for many components), then the square footage of an open-air garden should be 5 times greater... with ceiling height having little effect on the mass.

While this doesn't improve Brett's original estimate of open spaces required by that much (1 pace could support 5 rather than one person), coupled with more optimistic bio-tech, it could bring it into the area of feasability.

However, Spaceships uses a fixed mass density for components, so just as houserules have popped up for High-Density ships (high armor), perhaps house-rules are needed for low-density ships (open spaces that are actually "open", hydrogen Fuel tanks... maybe even habitats, etc.).

Obviously, the RAW seems to refer not to open-air gardens, but to densely packed hydroponis, fauxflesh vats, etc. This is fine, but the description of the "gardens" seems to imply something different.

Secondly, Spaceships simplifies the Total Life Support with a hand-wave saying that one open space component is what is required, without consideration for population... (both low and high populations may require diffrent amounts.)

-------------------

To correct this, a few things would be needed. First is a clarification between low-density "spacious open-air" gardens, and dense biological "food factories"... (including cost, suare-ffotage, etc.). The consequences for use of low-density systems (lower armor rating, increased targeting profile, increased stelth/chameleon/etc. costs... but perhaps benifits in Heat Dispersion, & max G possible for rotating segments.). Finally, a clear consensus of population supported per "Space", based on TL (as bio-tech improves), and perhaps type (low-density vs. High density).

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I've always assumed that the whole "open space providing total life support" thing didn't leave it as an open space with rolling fields of wheat, but converted it into an extensive life support system, with algae, aquaculture, tilapia tanks, fauxflesh vats, etc occupying the entire space.

I suppose that's not really supported by the text, but I don't see how it could provide the life support any other way.

And I the same. That works out to each ton of algae, aquaculture, tilapia tanks, fauxflesh vats, etc feeding 0.12–6.7 people. Which is 150–8,000 kilograms of algae, aquaculture, tilapia tanks, fauxflesh vats, etc per person fed, depending not on tech level or anything that might matter, but on how many systems in the ship are habitats, and whether the habitats are bunkrooms, single-occupancy cabins, or special-purpose rooms.

I'm heading towards house rules for

• biotech air/food recyclers the size of a single cabin
• with capacity consistent with technical likelihood (informed by Nyrath)
• that improves with tech level.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I hear you in truth. Although the sight of Jewel Staite going all Nigella on a Strawberry makes it almost worthwhile.

Oh yes! Conceding every complaint possible against Firefly, it sure was a pretty show.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I might add that there's no reason for total life support to be common unless you're in a no-FTL setting.

To be precise, the redoubtable Nyrath estimates that the break-even point at which a low-tech algae tank masses less that the stock of food it replaces is 145 days. Even if the enthusiasts for Spirulina are correct that can only be brought down to 32 days.

I'm considering a design for an exploration vessel that will engage in cruises perhaps as long as those James Cook took in HM Barque Endeavour and HM Sloop Resolution (three years each).

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Brett

To be precise, the redoubtable Nyrath estimates that the break-even point at which a low-tech algae tank masses less that the stock of food it replaces is 145 days.

This is somewhat my point about an emergency supply of food for a given duration. Before we can decide how much space "full life support" consumes, we have to decide what "full life support" actually is.

The way it's used in the Spaceships book suggests it is meant "all food, water, and oxygen supplies can be provided indefinitely, through farming, hydroponics, replication, reclamation, etc." It could well mean "enough life support to last for X number of days, roughly equal to the range of the ship."

To put it another way: there's not much advantage in putting an infinite supply of food on a dinghy; you can't get that far from shore.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Fish

This is somewhat my point about an emergency supply of food for a given duration. Before we can decide how much space "full life support" consumes, we have to decide what "full life support" actually is.

The way it's used in the Spaceships book suggests it is meant "all food, water, and oxygen supplies can be provided indefinitely, through farming, hydroponics, replication, reclamation, etc." It could well mean "enough life support to last for X number of days, roughly equal to the range of the ship."

Well, that'd be rather problematic considering that it takes the same amount of space regardless of the size and/or range of the ship.

Originally Posted by Fish

To put it another way: there's not much advantage in putting an infinite supply of food on a dinghy; you can't get that far from shore.

Even if that were true, it's sometimes valuable just to be able to sit 'off shore' indefinitely. A TL9 space station gets a lot of benefit out of total life support, but has no range at all. (And can be as small as an SM+5 tin can with a few over-sized habitat modules packed in, if you'll also allow half-cabins or half-bunkrooms.)

And a 'dinghy' with a solar sail can get you right out of the solar system, if you wait long enough.