Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

[apoc527]

The only way to really solve this issue is to have rapid fire attacks divided into 2 rolls: the first roll for the first shot gets no RoF bonus, but gets all the aiming bonuses you can come up with and the second roll more or less works how we have it now, except I would halve or eliminate whatever Aiming bonuses you were getting on the first shot.

Alternately, I suppose you don't even need to roll the dice twice. You can just calculate your "first shot" and "burst" MoSes separately.

[Erling]

Actually, setting a cap for Rapid Fire bonus seems to be quite elegant solution. At least for TL7-8 games, in order to emphasise difference between assault rifles and battle rifles.

[Gigermann]

The OP's initial statement is correct, IME—it's why we've never mounted hyper-accurate single-shot rifles on aircraft wings. GURPS 4e's version of autofire feels about right to me. Though it might stand a fact-check on the actual hit-chance numbers, I think issues are going to fall below GURPS skill granularity, with the notable and oft-lamented exception of scaling up to high RoF or high target-SM situations.

The RoF ~3 pistol thing is a bit of a problem. It should fall under the same philosophy, but since there's no bonus at that RoF, it really doesn't make sense to fire 3× unless you're trying to hit more than once, and I'm not sure how best to fix that, except to go back to 3e and treat semi-auto fire as individual rolls—which would work just fine, mechanically, but isn't as playable.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

The RoF ~3 pistol thing is a bit of a problem. It should fall under the same philosophy, but since there's no bonus at that RoF, it really doesn't make sense to fire 3× unless you're trying to hit more than once, and I'm not sure how best to fix that, except to go back to 3e and treat semi-auto fire as individual rolls—which would work just fine, mechanically, but isn't as playable.

We've just changed the bonus progression in my games, and I think Mark L does this too. Half the SSR bonus for shots fired works pretty well.

So 1-2 shots - no bonus
3-5 shots, +1
6-10 shots, +2
11-20 shots, +3
Then 50 (+4), 100, (+5), 200 (+6), etc.

YMMV, of course, but this gets the right kind of behavior for us. Firing three shots has some advantage over 1 or 2. Slow automatic fire (less than 600 rounds/min) is +2, most rifles in the 600-850 rnds/min range are +3, gatling guns are +4 or +5.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Actually, that sets you on a path to increasing Braced bonuses. Tactical Shooting added higher-value levels of Braced...

Oh, nice. I haven't run any games where bracing in mounts have come up*, so I'll have to keep this in mind for the next one.



* It could have come, it just never did.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

We've just changed the bonus progression in my games, and I think Mark L does this too. Half the SSR bonus for shots fired works pretty well.

Just thinking that over, you'd probably be okay if you just "reverse the polarity" on that table: instead of #-and-above it's #-and-below (excluding "1"). Therefore 2-5 = +1, 6-10 = +2, etc. That way there's a reason for a double-tap. But that would screw with the probabilities that currently exist.

Could also just say 2-8 = +1 and leave the rest alone.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by apoc527

The only way to really solve this issue is to have rapid fire attacks divided into 2 rolls: the first roll for the first shot gets no RoF bonus, but gets all the aiming bonuses you can come up with and the second roll more or less works how we have it now, except I would halve or eliminate whatever Aiming bonuses you were getting on the first shot.

Alternately, I suppose you don't even need to roll the dice twice. You can just calculate your "first shot" and "burst" MoSes separately.

Yep there was thread last year were this was one of the suggestions

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What you're saying here isn't at all compatible with the GURPS rapid fire rules. Rapid fire in GURPS does serve to increase the chance of producing at least one hit. Indeed, that's the main effect of firing more rounds, once you get beyond semi-automatic fire.

You do realize that Hans probably had a lot of input in the original rules, right? The man literally wrote the book on firearms in GURPS and is a consultant for freaking Janes. He's one of the finest experts on firearms in the world. That's not sycophantic defense either, that's just fact. You can decry that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but for the majority of us you're just screaming at a wall. Have you ever fired a fully automatic weapon? Because what he's describing is exactly what happens and what GURPS approximates is about what occurs in reality. It's still a playable abstraction, but that's appropriate since this is a game after all.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

We've just changed the bonus progression in my games, and I think Mark L does this too. Half the SSR bonus for shots fired works pretty well.

So 1-2 shots - no bonus
3-5 shots, +1
6-10 shots, +2
11-20 shots, +3
Then 50 (+4), 100, (+5), 200 (+6), etc.

YMMV, of course, but this gets the right kind of behavior for us. Firing three shots has some advantage over 1 or 2. Slow automatic fire (less than 600 rounds/min) is +2, most rifles in the 600-850 rnds/min range are +3, gatling guns are +4 or +5.

Yeah, I've considered doing this for Aeon, just for that exact effect.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What you're saying here isn't at all compatible with the GURPS rapid fire rules.

Actually, it is.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Rapid fire in GURPS does serve to increase the chance of producing at least one hit. Indeed, that's the main effect of firing more rounds, once you get beyond semi-automatic fire.

Yes. I never said otherwise. Firing more than one shot increases your chance to hit. This is what automatic fire does, in RL and in GURPS. What I said is that the first shot in a burst has the same chance to hit as a single shot from the same weapon, meaning controllability (the issue raised by Erling) is irrelevant for that.
The increase of the overall hit chance of a burst is because the Rapid Fire rules require only one roll, when it would be more realistic (but way less playable) to roll for each shot in the burst, with increasing penalties. The Rapid Fire bonus to the one to-hit roll in automatic fire thus combines several rolls. Hence, the one roll gets a (small) bonus, rather than to make three or five or ten rolls.

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Er, no need to get exited ;) Just a friendly debate here.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

You do realize that Hans probably had a lot of input in the original rules, right?

I was quite involved in the original peer review playtest of Fourth Edition, but I did not write these rules. I seem to remember that they are David's work, but don't quote me on that.

While I don't find the Rapid Fire rules perfect, I continue to defend them because they give reasonably realistic results with very little input (ie, you don't have to roll for every shot in a burst, you don't have to recalculate the recoil-induced deviation for every shot, etc.)

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

is a consultant for freaking Janes.

Just for the record, I've worked for many years as a consultant for one of the largest firearms manufacturers in the world, but not for Jane's. That's all I can and will say about this.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

It's still a playable abstraction, but that's appropriate since this is a game after all.

This is exactly my point, yes.

Cheers

HANS