[Banestorm - Abydos] A Lazarite mass

[trans]

We Orthodox with a big O call it the Divine Liturgy (I'm a recent convert, thirty years after first attending).

ad orientem, yep.

Whether in Church Slavonic, English, German, Greek, Serbian, or in various mixtures - I have always liked it. They serve it in Romanian just up the street - I keep meaning to attend there, too.

About the creep factor, all I can think of offhand is some still pictures from Soviet propaganda that made the clergy look like self-satisfied pigs, but when everything is in motion and you get the full sensory effect it's anything but creepy, in my experience.

Maybe you could play up the haggard look of the faithful who are worn down by prayer and fasting during Great Lent. That I have seen. At the same time, though, these people start to shine with an inner light.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by trans

Maybe you could play up the haggard look of the faithful who are worn down by prayer and fasting during Great Lent. That I have seen. At the same time, though, these people start to shine with an inner light.

With +1 Death-Aspected Mana on the island in general and +2 in the city itself, the average man on the street is already going to look a little rough, I'd imagine. This includes sharply-decreased access to non-Necromantic Healing magic (including Cure Disease) compared to the average for Yrth.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

So, very slightly disappointed by Greek vs Latin as the liturgical language, but that is more than made up for by iconography in this case, IMHO. Awesome icons and stained glass windows of skeletal saints doing awesome skeletal saint things! So exactly what this setting needed!

[Seraphim]

In terms of using the zombies during the Divine Liturgy (not sure how divine it is in the case of the Lazarites), I would imagine that, since the book says zombies are capable of farming, they would be used in minor clerical orders. Doorkeepers opening and closing the doors, both in the narthex and probably even in the altar itself (opening the deacon doors for the deacon, holy doors and curtain at the appropriate times). Zombie taperbearers carrying torches (specific liturgical instrument, not the kind of torches adventurers would use) in processions. I doubt zombies would be capable of singing in the choir as Readers or serving in the altar properly as Subdeacons.

If some newly Banestorm'd Slavic Orthodox came over and were converted to the heretical Lazarite sect, then they might take up the practice of the zbifka (a piece of bread and wine to help wash down Holy Communion after receiving), with a zombie at a small table off to the side of the church, constantly refilling a small metal cup with wine and hot water.

All this really depends on how Orthodox you want to run Abydos. By the book, they really just adapted a few Greek customs, such as using Greek as the liturgical language instead of Latin (although Orthodox theoretically use the vernacular and not a specific liturgical language) and icons. Most of the book treats them as Latin Rite otherwise. For example, Brother Demetrios is a monk, but has a western-style tonsure (eastern monks, sometimes called Basilian monks, don't) and is called brother instead of father.

I'll think about it and try to come up with some more ideas later.

[Bramble Thorn]

Does the faith consider a zombie to be the same person as the person it was created from? If so, then the church may have an intrest in seeing the zombie support the Vows it made in life, especially open ended ones that do not specify they end with death.

Of note here is the indelible mark of Ordination. Zombies might be used for tasks as part of the Mass in more than altarboy fashion. There may be a Liturgical Sign Language developed so they can give take confessions and grant absolution's in emergencies where no Living Priest is available.

A zombie might be commanded to give confession to the best of his ability so REALLY Last Rites and a Final Absolution (for all sins done in life) can be administered.

And of course, the church will still expect tithes from a zombie member of the church.

[Harry O'Gane]

Whoa, that's a lot of imput there.

Basically, the idea behind the mass is to provide the characters with a better insight into how "normal" the idea of zombies in everyday life is in Abydos.

Anyway, my point is that I'd keep most aspects of a non-funerary mass fairly standard for the setting unless there's a good reason for them not to be (eg: vampire monks taking actual blood for communion). These people aren't trying to put on a freak show, they consider themselves (the only) normal Christians of Yrth.

More than just that, they consider other Christians as utter heretic, ergo the name they got for them, the Petrian Heretics.

I think so, too. It depends on the style the OP prefers: immediate blatant horror, or something subtler, playing up just how deeply weird Abdyos is.

More like a culture shock and a bizarre oddity. Don't want my PCs to have the first thing to think being "all these guys in Abydos need to die because they use zombies." Instead, I wanted this deeply "weird" version.

All this really depends on how Orthodox you want to run Abydos. By the book, they really just adapted a few Greek customs, such as using Greek as the liturgical language instead of Latin (although Orthodox theoretically use the vernacular and not a specific liturgical language) and icons. Most of the book treats them as Latin Rite otherwise. For example, Brother Demetrios is a monk, but has a western-style tonsure (eastern monks, sometimes called Basilian monks, don't) and is called brother instead of father.

This is why I primarily asked the question, since I never had too much of an encounter with Ortohodox or any other Eastern form of Christianity. By the way, why would he be father instead of a brother?

Does the faith consider a zombie to be the same person as the person it was created from? If so, then the church may have an intrest in seeing the zombie support the Vows it made in life, especially open ended ones that do not specify they end with death.

If I understood correctly, Abydoseans see zombies as mere shells in which a soul once resided, not as actual persons. Then again, I am interested to see whether someone had a different interpretation.

[Zeta Blaze]

Originally Posted by Harry O'Gane

If I understood correctly, Abydoseans see zombies as mere shells in which a soul once resided, not as actual persons. Then again, I am interested to see whether someone had a different interpretation.

Cool that is the last piece of info i needed I suspect that the Abydoseans would NOT use zombies in any part of the formal presentation of the mass even if they were cleaned and sanitary because part of the ritual is that the participants in collecting preparing and presenting the gifts are all knowingly ministering to serve the lord.
So unless there was a severe need for more people to help preform the ritual they wouldn't use zombies. It would be like the modern church wouldn't use robots unless the church viewed them as people and they were members of the faith. Though other sentient undead are totally in.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Harry O'Gane

This is why I primarily asked the question, since I never had too much of an encounter with Ortohodox or any other Eastern form of Christianity. By the way, why would he be father instead of a brother?

Monks have been called father in the Eastern Church since at least the 300s in the Egyptian Thebaid. Calling priests and deacons father is a later practice, although not much later.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Harry O'Gane

Whoa, that's a lot of imput there.

This place is pretty handy.

Originally Posted by Harry O'Gane

Basically, the idea behind the mass is to provide the characters with a better insight into how "normal" the idea of zombies in everyday life is in Abydos. [snip]

More like a culture shock and a bizarre oddity. Don't want my PCs to have the first thing to think being "all these guys in Abydos need to die because they use zombies." Instead, I wanted this deeply "weird" version.

I wouldn't use the mass for this. I'd hit them with the normalcy of the weirdness before they get through the front gate, with views of skeletons peacefully working the fields as they approach the city ("Do we attack them!?" "Why? They're... weeding."), and one human supervising several well-armed skeletons in uniform at the gate. I'd use the mass to show them why it's normal here, instead of that it is normal here. Have the priest give a homily about God empowering St. Lazarus to raise the dead to defend the living and rebuild the city or something that shows how necromancy is tied to their civic and spiritual values.

Originally Posted by Harry O'Gane

If I understood correctly, Abydoseans see zombies as mere shells in which a soul once resided, not as actual persons. Then again, I am interested to see whether someone had a different interpretation.

Originally Posted by Zeta Blaze

Cool that is the last piece of info i needed I suspect that the Abydoseans would NOT use zombies in any part of the formal presentation of the mass even if they were cleaned and sanitary because part of the ritual is that the participants in collecting preparing and presenting the gifts are all knowingly ministering to serve the lord. So unless there was a severe need for more people to help preform the ritual they wouldn't use zombies. It would be like the modern church wouldn't use robots unless the church viewed them as people and they were members of the faith. Though other sentient undead are totally in.

This is correct: they view dead flesh as merely clay that the soul isn't using anymore (Abydos p 6-7). The church may have skeletons cleaning the privy or peeling potatoes for the potluck dinner, but not collecting the offerings, handing out communion wafers, etc. The ceremonial stuff is an honor given to human and sentient undead (eg: vampire, lich) clergy and volunteers. If you want to present the sentient undead as part of the church without making the players think they're in control of it, have a very pious (and probably very powerful) lich humbly doing some low-level task, preferably communion, so it gets a chance to speak to them briefly and remove all doubt that it's a mindless skele-bot, and because of the up-close-and-personal nature ("As kind as its voice was, I'll never forget the faint brush of its fleshless finger across my upper lip..."), while a bona fide human preaches from the pulpit.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I wouldn't use the mass for this. I'd hit them with the normalcy of the weirdness before they get through the front gate, with views of skeletons peacefully working the fields as they approach the city ("Do we attack them!?" "Why? They're... weeding."), and one human supervising several well-armed skeletons in uniform at the gate. I'd use the mass to show them why it's normal here, instead of that it is normal here. Have the priest give a homily about God empowering St. Lazarus to raise the dead to defend the living and rebuild the city or something that shows how necromancy is tied to their civic and spiritual values.

I really like this idea. I'm not convinced that even the Lazarites would use undead in their Church services.

This is correct: they view dead flesh as merely clay that the soul isn't using anymore (Abydos p 6-7). The church may have skeletons cleaning the privy or peeling potatoes for the potluck dinner, but not collecting the offerings, handing out communion wafers, etc. The ceremonial stuff is an honor given to human and sentient undead (eg: vampire, lich) clergy and volunteers. If you want to present the sentient undead as part of the church without making the players think they're in control of it, have a very pious (and probably very powerful) lich humbly doing some low-level task, preferably communion, so it gets a chance to speak to them briefly and remove all doubt that it's a mindless skele-bot, and because of the up-close-and-personal nature ("As kind as its voice was, I'll never forget the faint brush of its fleshless finger across my upper lip..."), while a bona fide human preaches from the pulpit.

Depending on how Eastern Christian you want to play Abydos, most of this wouldn't be possible. The Orthodox don't use wafers at Communion nor do we use Eucharistic ministers. Instead, it's leavened bread mixed with the wine and hot water in a chalice, which is given out to the communicants via a spoon by the bishop, priest, or in rarely, the deacon.

I honestly think undead would only be used for cleaning, at best, especially since they are referred to as being servants and slaves in the book. Serving in the temple is considered to be an honor that wouldn't be given to just any human, let alone a lumbering undead. Ideally, anyone serving in any liturgical function should be tonsured a cleric (this does not involve the western style tonsure) and ordained to that rank, even if only minor clergy. I'm not sure you could ordain a soulless zombie.