[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by chandley

Didnt know about the Enhanced Parry or CR. That does change things.

I tend to omit Combat Reflexes from short-hand stats, assuming that any professional Hero will have it. I only note it if it is otherwise ambigious whether the character ought to have it.

Originally Posted by chandley

Cant parry with the polearm, but could parry with Wrestling (vs the break free attempt).

I'm not sure how I feel about Hands-Free Parries being unpenalised vs. any grappling move, including Break Free. Break Free being an attack which allows an Active Defence is one of the biggest changes of Technical Grappling.

It seems to lead to counter-intuitive results, in that it lets weak-but-skilled characters whose concept is 'Can't Touch This' (i.e. have Enhanced Parry and Dodge) keep limpet-like grips on their foes, without the ST differential ever really coming into play, since the stronger character cannot counter-grapple or try to Break Free.

I think that I'd have been happier with a) Break Free attempts being harder to defend against than other attacks, since they are directed at the grapple, not the character and b) Hands-Free Grapples being penalised by -2, so that there really is a defensive drawback to 'forcing' a bad grapple instead of trying again for a better one (p. 19).

Originally Posted by chandley

Given the polearm is in use, Sir Michaels best choice is probably to take a whack at the arm, trying for shock penalties and possibly a cripple. Polearm cant parry (in use for the hook) and wrestling cant either without dropping the polearm (needs two hands to parry). That leaves a dodge.

Yep. The way the rules are written, grabbing the polearm, jamming his longsword between it and himself or trying to win free of the hook are all grappling moves and therefore almost impossible. Mickey's optimal strategy is to strike and on the first playthrough I tried, he crippled Braelgar's right hand.

It is, however, really strange that the superior grappler of the two should have an incentive to avoid countering a grapple with grappling moves.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Edit: No, damn it, it means -4 to ST and -2 to DX to actions involving said leg. That also means at least a -2 to ST and -1 to DX to all actions and -4 ST and -2 DX to whole-body actions, including attacks made with his sword. I'm guessing that Dodge and resisting take-downs would sum the whole-body penalty and the leg penalty, for a total of -8 ST and -4 DX? Or does the leg penalty not matter for that purpose?

Just use the whole body penalty. He's -4 to ST, -2 to DX, -1 to Parry, and no penalty to Dodge.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Just use the whole body penalty. He's -4 to ST, -2 to DX, -1 to Parry, and no penalty to Dodge.

Ah, but having a leg grappled means that he can't use it for stability and that Mcikey is therefore Unstable and any CPs spent influencing sweeps, takedowns and throws have double effect, right?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Ah, but having a leg grappled means that he can't use it for stability and that Mcikey is therefore Unstable and any CPs spent influencing sweeps, takedowns and throws have double effect, right?

Yes. There's no question M is in a bad situation. He's being grappled by someone with Skill-28, trained ST equal or better to his foe, using a weapon designed to magnify ST.

These results aren't that surprising at that level. The stronger, more skilled fighter is . . . Winning. The weaker, less skilled fighter must get lucky.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yes. There's no question M is in a bad situation. He's being grappled by someone with Skill-28, trained ST equal or better to his foe, using a weapon designed to magnify ST.

These results aren't that surprising at that level. The stronger, more skilled fighter is . . . Winning. The weaker, less skilled fighter must get lucky.

Yeah, but Mickey has ST +4 relative to Braelgar and Trained ST at +6 to +10 over him. He's a much better grappler, in particular much better at unarmed grappling.

But the rules strongly discourage him from countering Braelgar's Polearm Hook with any kind of grappling move of his own. He must strike at Braelgar, in order to avoid the Hands-Free Parry.

If he strikes, the odds are that he'll win and that using Hook without immediately following it up with a move that rendered Mickey unable to strike at him was a mistake for Braelgar.

If Mickey tries to respond in a realistic fashion, by grabbing at the weapon used to hook him, using his own weapon to try to lever it away or something similar, the odds shift heavily against him.

Basically, Hands-Free Parry against any grappling move, including Break Free, completely alters the balance of the fight.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Basically, Hands-Free Parry against any grappling move, including Break Free, completely alters the balance of the fight.

Im not sure this is Hands-Free Parry's fault so much as it is that the fighters involved are cinematic in lots of ways, and it has pushed this example into an edge case. +2 to all parries is a potent ability, and it is making it so that Sir Michael cant deceptive attack enough on a Break Free to get good odds of reducing CP. It is basically +4 to all skills for parrying purposes, and that is a pretty big bonus, basically making up for Sir Michael's better Wrestling skill.

Combat Reflexes of course just piles on the hurt here.

Really, it is perhaps incorrect to say Sir Michael is the more skilled fighter, because you have to include that bonus to parry in Sir Braelgar's "skill".

But Sir Michaels higher strength has helped him in one aspect: Without spending a turn to build up CP, Sir Braelgar would have had poor odds trying to do a raw Sweep (QC of Sweep vs TST of 30...). He _needed_ to do the hook first, and that is what Sir Michaels ST bought him, the opportunity to make a unparried strike.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by chandley

Im not sure this is Hands-Free Parry's fault so much as it is that the fighters involved are cinematic in lots of ways, and it has pushed this example into an edge case.

It might be. I haven't tried out other PCs in my campaign against plausible foes yet.

I still get the feeling that characters whose concept is that they are extremely hard to hit will now also have an awesome ability to retain an unopposed grapple against much stronger grapplers, who can't Break Free.

Especially since a lot of Heroes in my campaign use magic to get a DB of +1 to +5, which tends to make Dodge and Parries very high.

Originally Posted by chandley

+2 to all parries is a potent ability, and it is making it so that Sir Michael cant deceptive attack enough on a Break Free to get good odds of reducing CP. It is basically +4 to all skills for parrying purposes, and that is a pretty big bonus, basically making up for Sir Michael's better Wrestling skill.

Combat Reflexes of course just piles on the hurt here.

Pretty much all heroic warriors in fiction will have Combat Reflexes anyway and a lot of them will have Enhanced Parry 1-2 levels. In fact, these are explicitly allowed as realistic Advantages that can come with training and experience, so even in a campaign where there aren't cinematic supers, they'll appear. The rules have to account for that.

Originally Posted by chandley

Really, it is perhaps incorrect to say Sir Michael is the more skilled fighter, because you have to include that bonus to parry in Sir Braelgar's "skill".

Master Braelgar is more skilled with his weapon, it is true. He's skill 28 and Enhanced Parry 2. Sir Michael has only skill 24 and Enhanced Parry 1. In so far as it's possible to call someone as burly as Braelgar 'weak', this is a classic 'weak-but-skilled vs. strong' fight.

But that's why I suggested beforehand that Mickey's prefered strategy had to be to get close and grapple, seeing that he has Wrestling 25 against Wrestling 24 and ST 20 vs. ST 16 (and in case it matters Brawling 25 vs. Brawling 22).

Originally Posted by chandley

But Sir Michaels higher strength has helped him in one aspect: Without spending a turn to build up CP, Sir Braelgar would have had poor odds trying to do a raw Sweep (QC of Sweep vs TST of 30...). He _needed_ to do the hook first, and that is what Sir Michaels ST bought him, the opportunity to make a unparried strike.

It only bought that because Master Braelgar was run by someone unfamiliar with the Technical Grappling rules and trying to learn them.

Now I know that Hook isn't worth doing against an opponent with a formiddable strike attack with enough Reach to attack you, unless you have another defence than the weapon you are using to Hook and/or you make the Hook as part of a Rapid Strike, Combination or Extra Attack that allows you to disable the opponent's striking capability before he takes advantage of your lack of a Parry.

Hook is awesome if your opponent is much better at grappling than striking, however, as he is very unlikely to be able to Break Free. Not only do you get a Parry vs. his attempt to do so, but you'll have loads of CP because you did +2/die CP and he's stuck doing a lot less even if he hits, because Break Free attempts cannot be made using weapons.

Is that right, by the way? Is it impossible to use a wepaon that you can Armed Grapple with to Break Free with against a grapple with a weapon against you?

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Is that right, by the way? Is it impossible to use a wepaon that you can Armed Grapple with to Break Free with against a grapple with a weapon against you?

Im pretty sure you can break free with a weapon using Armed Grappling, you just cant improve the Break Free technique from a weapon skill.

Another option for Sir Michael is an Escaping Parry, which he could base off his Wrestling Parry (at -2 for the technique). When Sir Braeglar attempts to use the CP he has gained, Sir Michael could use Escaping Parry to both stop the attempt (if it allows a parry to stop it) _and_ reduce CP at the same time.

A third, stranger option might be to try something fancy, like a forced posture change. The hook allows Sir Michael to do grappling moves himself, and any technique that is resolved as a QC will circumvent the Impossible Parry problem.

But truly, Sir Michael is up a crick. His skill is not high enough with anything he has to overcome his opponents defenses. That is just a bad situation to be in.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by chandley

Im pretty sure you can break free with a weapon using Armed Grappling, you just cant improve the Break Free technique from a weapon skill.

Doug, I want a ruling on this! I'm personally inclined to allow it, but the rules-as-written don't seem to. Did playtesting reveal any pitfalls associated with it?

Originally Posted by chandley

Another option for Sir Michael is an Escaping Parry, which he could base off his Wrestling Parry (at -2 for the technique). When Sir Braeglar attempts to use the CP he has gained, Sir Michael could use Escaping Parry to both stop the attempt (if it allows a parry to stop it) _and_ reduce CP at the same time.

Granted, he could try that.

Originally Posted by chandley

A third, stranger option might be to try something fancy, like a forced posture change. The hook allows Sir Michael to do grappling moves himself, and any technique that is resolved as a QC will circumvent the Impossible Parry problem.

Yeah, I thought about that. But Mickey only has one leg involved in the grapple, so he'd be at Trained ST (20x0.6+10=22) instead of Trained ST 30 and with the -4 ST the grapple gives him, he'd probably lose to Master Braelgar's Trained ST 22.

Originally Posted by chandley

But truly, Sir Michael is up a crick. His skill is not high enough with anything he has to overcome his opponents defenses. That is just a bad situation to be in.

It's only bad if he wants to use grappling. He's fine if he's content to strike, since Master Braelgar will have to defend with Dodge 9 against those, as even if he were prepared to release the Hook, his polarm is an Unbalanced weapon and can't Parry on the turn after it was used to attack.

Only because Hands-Free Parry somehow allows an unarmed Parry with an Unbalanced weapon that cannot otherwise be used to Parry, even at Reach 2 when no other body part can possibly be used to counter any grappling move, can Master Braelgar defend reliably against any grappling counter Mickey might try. He's helpless against anything which isn't defined as 'grappling' and thus doesn't fall under Hands-Free Parry.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hook is awesome if your opponent is much better at grappling than striking, however, as he is very unlikely to be able to Break Free. Not only do you get a Parry vs. his attempt to do so, but you'll have loads of CP because you did +2/die CP and he's stuck doing a lot less even if he hits, because Break Free attempts cannot be made using weapons.

If you don't simply have your opponent shut out by them being unable to beat your active defenses, rather than trying to break free they could pile up CP against your weapon, which will quickly pose a problem to your ability to use the weapon against them.