[Technical Grappling] Teach me using examples

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Correct, it does not impact the hit rolls. Strength only applies after you successfully do whatever it is you want to do.

Very good.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If he's a striker too, he'll also like the Destabilization Strike from Pyramid #3/61.

His highest two skills are Brawling and Wrestling, both at skill 25 or DX+11. He tends to strike with his claymore, too.

[Icelander]

Hmmm... even against a more worthy opponent, Sir Michael's massive ST gives him a decisive advantage, I think. That won't cause any unhappiness with the player, of course.

Braelgar Warblood is a legendary Master of Defence who is present at the tourney where the PC is competing and will actually be his next opponent in the tilts. Of course, jousting is hardly Master Braelgar's chosen style, but his social status as a Master of a School of Defence with a Royal Writ entitles him to compete among the knights and nobles.

Sir Michael will probably make short work of Master Braelgar with a lance, seeing as he has a +1 to +2 advantage in skill scores that are important and a higher ST as well. And given Master Braelgar's pride, that might lead him to enter the foot lists, where it is not unlikely that he might face Sir Michael, especially if he makes a point of challenging him there.

So, Braelgar weighs the same as Mickey or 250 lbs., though in his case, there is some fat along with the muscle. He has ST 16 (HP 18), DX 12, HT 14. He has Experienced Talent 6 and Weapon Master. His skill with his halberd is DX+16 or skill 28 and he has Brawling DX+8 and Wrestling DX+10.

This means that he has Trained ST 21 with Wrestling, for a CP of 2d. With his halberd he has Trained ST 23 and a CP of 2d+5. Assuming that both combatants are wearing arms of 65 lbs., Master Braelgar has no grappling encumbrance penalty, since his Training Bonus reduces -2 to 0, but Sir Michael gets a +1.

Well, the high ST might not be a decisive bonus for Sir Michael here, since Master Braelgar is no lightweight. I guess he could squeek into +2 by keeping weight down on his harness and arms, for example wearing light plate on his legs and carrying nothing except a tourney longsword.

Edit: Assuming Sir Michael will wear only 55 lbs. of arms, which isn't actually all that implausible, assuming a rondel, bastard sword and a fairly light field armour for the foot lists, he'll be at +2 for the grappling encumbrance modifier relative to Master Braelgar.

This means that Sir Michael rolls vs. 24 to hit with a Sweep and vs. 30 in the Quick Contest. Master Braelgar sweeps at 25 to hit and rolls vs. 25 for effects in the Quick Contest, but he resists Sweeps at only 22.

Unfortunately for Sir Michael, hitting with the Sweep is more or less impossible, given Master Braelgar's Parry 19-20 or so.

Getting into Close Combat will be Sir Michael's best bet, where he can leverage his grappling skills and strength. At any kind of range, the much greater experience and expertise of the Master of Defence will tell and he'll be able to use the axe-head of the halberd to Hook at skill 28, with predictable nasty consequences.

[Icelander]

"A sweep is resolved as an attack followed by a Quick Contest
in the same turn."

GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling p. 40.

A contest of what against what? If we are meant to use the rules from MA p. 81 unchanged, what about Trained ST? Can we substitute that for ST?*

*I assume so, but it doesn't say.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hmmm... even against a more worthy opponent, Sir Michael's massive ST gives him a decisive advantage, I think. That won't cause any unhappiness with the player, of course.

Of course. :-)

Sir Michael is effectively a super-hero. With several skills at DX+7 to DX+11 and a raw ST of 20, he's a grappling (and striking, for that matter) machine. If he REALLY wants to be a mega-grappler, take Extra Attack if he doesn't have it already. :-)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

"A sweep is resolved as an attack followed by a Quick Contest
in the same turn."

GURPS Martial Arts: Technical Grappling p. 40.

A contest of what against what? If we are meant to use the rules from MA p. 81 unchanged, what about Trained ST? Can we substitute that for ST?*

*I assume so, but it doesn't say.

Yes, use the rules from MA, p. 81. I did a lot of that, and TG is meant to be used with MA.

You may substitute Trained ST for ST; that's not as explicit as it could be, but if you look at the footnote for Sumo Wrestling on p. 48, Sweep is one of the things impacted by the fast progression).

Even Wrenches benefit from your BEST training bonus (a fact that I had to remind myself of). If you do a search for "not Trained ST" you will come up with the very few things where ST cannot be replaced by Trained ST.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Of course. :-)

Sir Michael is effectively a super-hero. With several skills at DX+7 to DX+10 and a raw ST of 20, he's a grappling (and striking, for that matter) machine.

He is indeed. Of course, he exist in a world where experienced adventurers all develop super powers, so it's not as if never meets other superpowered individuals.

But his Brawling and Wrestling skills are usually higher than anyone he encounters, because he's a legendary barroom brawler as much as he is a heroic knight. :)

He was even trained a special tavern brawling style* in his Highland homeland, whose mythical originator was one of his own ancestors.

*The Lion Forewarned, named after 'The Lion of the Highlands', Anguy mac Anguy.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If he REALLY wants to be a mega-grappler, take Extra Attack if he doesn't have it already. :-)

Even at 1000+, he still hasn't been able to afford it. Well, let's say that he's spent his point on other things every time around.

Stuff like Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 3 and suchlike.

He just uses Rapid Strike. At effective skill 24-29, he can make quite a few of those at -3 per.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He just uses Rapid Strike. At effective skill 24-29, he can make quite a few of those at -3 per.

Very true. My comment was driven by my writeup Technical Natasha, where she's probably ST 15 and about as skilled as Sir Michael, and I noted that a level of Extra Attack would go a long way to making some of her more interesting moves (like her signature double-leg neck grapple) more stackable, since that one move starts at a base of -12.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yes, use the rules from MA, p. 81. I did a lot of that, and TG is meant to be used with MA.

I don't have a PDF of Martial Arts and am away from home. If I recall correctly, the attacker rolls vs. either Sweep or his ST (Trained ST) and the defender can resist with ST, DX or highest grappling skill.

If Sir Michael is using his claymore to Sweep, does he have to use the Trained ST for his skill with it or can he use his highest Trained ST, i.e. that for Wrestling? Edit: Searching the PDF reveals that he figures Trained ST from his Sweep level, which is equal to his Two-Handed Sword skill.

Does Sweeping with a weapon rather than unarmed allow any kind of bonus for the lever effect, analogues to the bonus to CPs for Reach, or is the fact that you can Sweep at Reach 2 the only benefit?

[Icelander]

To get a feeling for the system, I'll try a few turns between these worthy opponents. They each know the styles that the other will be using, so they'll reduce the effects of Deceptive Attacks and Feints from the other by 1. I'm using a house rule in my campaign that doubles the to hit bonus of Evaluate, so I'll incorporate that in these musings, but it's easy enough for others to halve the bonuses.

Mickey is faster, so he goes first. He's smart enough not to rush in, however. He Steps and Evaluates.

Master Braelgar is far more experienced, so he's not going to be the first one to make any mistakes. He also Steps and Evaluates.

It's not a big circle, so they're in range now. Sir Michael always moves toward Master Braelgar, but he steps back or to the side to keep at Reach 2. They continue their circling for two more turns, however, as they each amass the maximum Evaluate bonus (+6 in my campaign).

On the turn after that, Sir Michael acts, because he's less experienced, has Bad Temper and would probably lose a Will-based highest combat skill roll modified by disadvantages to avoid striking the first blow. Actually, his player would have been doing well to avoid using Move and Attack to strike in the first turn. ;)

Mickey Steps and Feints. He's Feinting at skill 24+6 and Master Braelgar gets to resist with skill 28 (and reduce any margin of victory by 4, 1 for knowing the same styles and 3 for Evaluate).

Most likely outcome is a victory, but with a margin not enough to cause a defence penalty. A lucky roll might result in a small penalty. If we roll for them, I get 8 (success by 22) and 10 (success by 18). No penalty.

Braelgar sidesteps to open the range back to Reach 2 and Hooks at the leg of Sir Michael. He would roll at skill 28+6-2=32, but he uses Deceptive Attack to reduce this to effective skill 16 and give a -8 to Sir Michael's Active Defences (which Style Familiarity reduces to -7). He hits with 11.

Sir Michael has Parry 17 under ordinary circumstances and he's holding his longsword in a Defensive Grip. This means Parry 11. A roll of 14 is not enough. A hit and Master Braelgar causes CP for his Trained ST 22, with a +2 per die. That's 2d+4, if I am not mistaken, which becomes 8 CPs, which is -8 to ST and -4 to DX for actions involving Sir Michael's right leg. Edit: No, damn it, it means -4 to ST and -2 to DX to actions involving said leg. That also means at least a -2 to ST and -1 to DX to all actions and -4 ST and -2 DX to whole-body actions, including attacks made with his sword. I'm guessing that Dodge and resisting take-downs would sum the whole-body penalty and the leg penalty, for a total of -8 ST and -4 DX? Or does the leg penalty not matter for that purpose?

I'm guessing that Sir Michael will now want to establish his own grapple. For that, however, he needs to move 2 hexes or use All-Out Attack (Long), right? Because even an Armed Grapple has only Reach C.

Alternatively, he could grab the halberd at -2 to Wrestling skill and Master Braelgar could not Parry with it without giving up the grapple on Sir Michael, I think. At least, since a limb used for a grapple cannot be used to Parry, I assume that the same applies to a weapon used to grapple, but I couldn't find a reference to that effect anywhere.

Edit: This is actually super important. If you've achieved a grapple with your weapon at Reach 2 using Hook, what Active Defences can you use against attempts to grapple your weapon and/or Break Free from the grapple?

You are using your weapon to grapple, so it is presumably not available for Parry until you let go, as per Armed Grapple (MA p. 67) and Hook (p. 74). And the 'technical parry' or 'counter' rules on MA:TG p. 22 specify unarmed combat skill.

Is Dodge the only legal defence here?

Or should you be able to use a version of a 'technical parry' or 'counter' in this situation to defend with your weapon skill without letting go, for example by drawing the opponent out of position with your grapple, perhaps with the Parry level based on the Hook technique or the Armed Grapple technique?

[Varyon]

I ran an example combat with TG of a fellow with a dueling halberd against one using a shield and warhammer*. In that, the halberd's pick ended up getting stuck in the shield (effectively an Armed Grapple) and the hammer guy tried to attack and break it. I ruled the halberdier could Parry by pulling unbalancing the guy's strike - it didn't work anyway, and were I not making use of some house rules to nerf muscle-based damage, that halberd would have run a very good chance of breaking (and that was just with ST 12).

In your case, I'd say Mikey, particularly with his high strength and long Reach (I ruled the hammer could only strike the metal-and-wood part of the halberd, while a greatsword could easily reach the just-wood portion), would probably be best served by striking at the halberd itself, leaving his opponent with a quarterstaff at best (probably more like a light club). Tournament rules might allow his opponent to disengage and grab a new halberd, resetting things (which is still in Mikey's favor).


*Actually, a Mace with a pick-head added.