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Old 03-19-2013, 09:36 AM   #11
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Default Re: (Modular and Alternate) Abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Yes, first you determine the overall possibilities to set the per slot cost. Then you can apply Trait and Focus based modifiers that limit it to a subset of the original options. If your list determined by your slot cost is not further limited by the trait limitation, it's not worth more points.

You don't have all the details of the ability posted, so it's hard to determine if that's what you're doing, but that's how it seemed from the OP.
I see nothing in the rules which restricts the application of Trait Limited to an MA which has a Base per Slot cost of 5 (such as Super-Memorisation) which by having a Per Slot cost of 5 are implicitly supporting a 'lengthy catalog'.

It's largely irrelevant - since it only adds 2 points (reduced by the -30% Trait Limitation), per Slot (not per point of ability), to use Slotted Cosmic Power instead of my version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Ok, I misunderstood, I thought you were paying 1/5th again in the pool, not making up the 4/5ths not paid before by the AA. If you are paying the 4/5, then there's no issue.
That's what I'm trying to simulate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR
I am fudging the use of the MA point pool to count as the extra points, but it doesn't seem unreasonable when the AA abilites have to have been bought in the first place.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
The MA costs 5 points per point of ability loaded into a slot; the AA has been bought at a discount of -4 points per 5 points of full cost ability (i.e. 1/5 or -4/5); I'm counting the 5 points per point of ability from the MA Slot against the 4 points per point of AA (1/5 cost) ability required to make it back up to having paid the full cost of the ability.
It's a fudge, but I'm not sure that it's unfair or unreasonable.


Looking at it another way:

If I have Divine Favor, and the Learned Prayer 'Protection from Evil' for which I've paid [3] points, (which is a [15] point ability bought as an AA).

If I was to sink another 12 points into 'Protection from Evil' to buy it at Full Cost (removing it from the AA), I would be allowed to use it freely, and at the same time as the Divine Favor 6 ability - but it would no longer be a part of the AA.

What I'm trying to do, is use MA to create a generic ability which allows me to temporarily pull a LP out of the Divine Favor AA, to be able to use it freely, and then put it back, or pull a different one out.
As munin suggested, I should probably be paying the full 12 points into the MA, which would be [46] points as an MA Slot ([47] points if using Slotted Cosmic Powers) - which is steep. I can just about buy 4 such LPs as totally independent abilities for the same cost, and there aren't enough LPs available (using the Core Divine Favor book as the shopping list),
Even if you allow for other LPs, shifting up the DF scale, to say Level 10 Prayers, which have a full cost of 70 points, 80% would be [56] points, as Slotted Cosmic Power 1 (56) (Trait Limited, -30%) that's [201] points.

My version, would be SCP 1 (14) (-30%) which would be [54] points - is possibly a little too good a deal, but in all but the maximum full cost Level 10 LP, the points invested in the SCP covers the discounted value of the LP to effectively pay for it at full cost.

Even if my version is too good a deal, paying for the difference into the MA is too costly, since buying an SCP for the Full cost - e.g. SCP 1 (70) (Limited, all Divine Favour Learned Prayers, -30%) is [250] points to be able to use Any Learned Prayer Ability, without having to have bought it at all; is a better deal than [201] points and buying some learned prayers, even at 1/5 cost!

Last edited by SCAR; 03-19-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:55 AM   #12
the_matrix_walker
 
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Default Re: (Modular and Alternate) Abilities

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Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
I see nothing in the rules which restricts the application of Trait Limited to an MA which has a Base per Slot cost of 5 (such as Super-Memorisation) which by having a Per Slot cost of 5 are implicitly supporting a 'lengthy catalog'.
A limitation that does not limit you is not a limitation. Super memorization does not intrinsically carry a trait limitation. If your base cost is determined by "this list of x abilities" then you cannot also claim a limitation on the already reduced price for that entire list. If there is a trait some selections from the list have and some don't, then you have a valid basis for adding a trait based limitation as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
It's largely irrelevant - since it only adds 2 points (reduced by the -30% Trait Limitation), per Slot (not per point of ability), to use Slotted Cosmic Power instead of my version.

That's what I'm trying to simulate

The MA costs 5 points per point of ability loaded into a slot; the AA has been bought at a discount of -4 points per 5 points of full cost ability (i.e. 1/5 or -4/5); I'm counting the 5 points per point of ability from the MA Slot against the 4 points per point of AA (1/5 cost) ability required to make it back up to having paid the full cost of the ability.
It's a fudge, but I'm not sure that it's unfair or unreasonable.


Looking at it another way:

If I have Divine Favor, and the Learned Prayer 'Protection from Evil' for which I've paid [3] points, (which is a [15] point ability bought as an AA).

If I was to sink another 12 points into 'Protection from Evil' to buy it at Full Cost (removing it from the AA), I would be allowed to use it freely, and at the same time as the Divine Favor 6 ability - but it would no longer be a part of the AA.

What I'm trying to do, is use MA to create a generic ability which allows me to temporarily pull a LP out of the Divine Favor AA, to be able to use it freely, and then put it back, or pull a different one out.
As munin suggested, I should probably be paying the full 12 points into the MA, which would be [46] points as an MA Slot ([47] points if using Slotted Cosmic Powers) - which is steep. I can just about buy 4 such LPs as totally independent abilities for the same cost, and there aren't enough LPs available (using the Core Divine Favor book as the shopping list),
Even if you allow for other LPs, shifting up the DF scale, to say Level 10 Prayers, which have a full cost of 70 points, 80% would be [56] points, as Slotted Cosmic Power 1 (56) (Trait Limited, -30%) that's [201] points.

My version, would be SCP 1 (14) (-30%) which would be [54] points - is possibly a little too good a deal, but in all but the maximum full cost Level 10 LP, the points invested in the SCP covers the discounted value of the LP to effectively pay for it at full cost.

Even if my version is too good a deal, paying for the difference into the MA is too costly, since buying an SCP for the Full cost - e.g. SCP 1 (70) (Limited, all Divine Favour Learned Prayers, -30%) is [250] points to be able to use Any Learned Prayer Ability, without having to have bought it at all; is a better deal than [201] points and buying some learned prayers, even at 1/5 cost!
Ah I see. I have to agree that for this to work "by the RAW" you need to pay the full 4/5 difference to "buy off" being an Alternative Ability. If it's your game and you're throwing around "big powers on the cheap" have fun! You don't need permission!
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:16 PM   #13
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Default Re: (Modular and Alternate) Abilities

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Ah I see. I have to agree that for this to work "by the RAW" you need to pay the full 4/5 difference to "buy off" being an Alternative Ability. If it's your game and you're throwing around "big powers on the cheap" have fun! You don't need permission!
Sadly I think the 4/5th cost is the way to make this mechanism work 'right', which is too
expensive for my liking.

I'm trying to find a mechanism that has at least some consensus from others as a reasonable rules legal mechanism, and not just 'do what I like, it's my game', which I find to be a cop out really.

Another much simpler option has occurred to me which I'll think over before attempting to gather opinions.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:30 PM   #14
PK
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Default Re: (Modular and Alternate) Abilities

If you want to be able to use multiple parts of an AA simultaneously (including multiple learned prayers), there's a much simpler rule for that. It's not canonical yet, but it has the blessings of the editorial staff. Go here...

http://mygurps.com/?p=ih#houserules

...and check out rule #15.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:51 PM   #15
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Default Re: (Modular and Alternate) Abilities

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
If you want to be able to use multiple parts of an AA simultaneously (including multiple learned prayers), there's a much simpler rule for that. It's not canonical yet, but it has the blessings of the editorial staff. Go here...

http://mygurps.com/?p=ih#houserules

...and check out rule #15.
That's excellent. It's the logical progression, and great to see it at least semi official.
Count me as happy.
Thanks.
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