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Old 11-12-2015, 04:57 AM   #31
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Protecting your young

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
True, but archaeology and genetic analyses shows that there were many failed attempts to domesticate dogs, cattle, etc. before any "took". And many animals related to common farm animals simply could not be domesticated.
Are there? (genuine question). I'm interested in how the archaeological record would show failed attempts, and not just a lack of evidence of it in certain locations and at certain times?

Don't get me wrong I'm sure it was never an automatic process that just required the initial impulse and availability!

"I'll just become that wild dog pack's alpha and then .... profit" is a bit optimistic ;-)

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It is, or at least should, amaze us that every single domestic cat learns on their own that their instinctive modes of communication don't work on us. They must each figure out that only loud noises in the pitch range of our young gets our attention.
Isn't it more that meowing is an instinctive infantile behaviour in the wild*, one that domestic cat's don't grow out of. It remains effective after all so there is little reason for why they should (after a while it gets ignored in the wild) i.e it's not a new behaviour created by domestic cats.

Continued infantile behaviour is a bit of a thing in some domesticated animals (to put it v.simply they never need to grow up, nor are they taught or encouraged to)


*as you point out the similarities with the cries of our own young

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-12-2015 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:16 AM   #32
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Its anecdotal, but I've got evidence that meowing is a learned behavior in domestic cats.

My cat is a stupid cat. I love her dearly, but she's not a problem solver.

It took her eight years to learn to meow. We had to board her at a "cat spa", where she was both relaxed and exposed to other meowing cats getting what they wanted, before she tried meowing with us. When she came back it wasn't really tentative, she threw herself full into it. She was confident she could meow for attention and for food. She's still learning other new things she can try to meow for.

Things she'd already learned a way to signal us on, she doesn't meow for. We've accidentally established "picking halfheartedly at the scratching post" means "give me a treat", and she still does that.
Now though, she might meow to get me to follow her to the scratching post so I can see her do it and give her a treat.

Overall I'm pleased, because before her way of "communicating" her water dish was empty was to sit by it and look sad. That's hard to notice when it's on another floor of the house.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:19 AM   #33
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Its anecdotal, but I've got evidence that meowing is a learned behavior in domestic cats.

My cat is a stupid cat. I love her dearly, but she's not a problem solver.

It took her eight years to learn to meow. We had to board her at a "cat spa", where she was both relaxed and exposed to other meowing cats getting what they wanted, before she tried meowing with us. When she came back it wasn't really tentative, she threw herself full into it. She was confident she could meow for attention and for food. She's still learning other new things she can try to meow for.

Things she'd already learned a way to signal us on, she doesn't meow for. We've accidentally established "picking halfheartedly at the scratching post" means "give me a treat", and she still does that.
Now though, she might meow to get me to follow her to the scratching post so I can see her do it and give her a treat.

Overall I'm pleased, because before her way of "communicating" her water dish was empty was to sit by it and look sad. That's hard to notice when it's on another floor of the house.
Well TBF a individual might be slow in exhibiting or successfully employing instinctive as well as learned behaviour. Instinctive is itself a range of stuff not all or nothing every individual will always exhibit them. Barring a bunch of experiments where new born kittens are removed from their mums and raised in isolation* it's hard to say how instinctive it is. But that also means I shouldn't just have said oh it's instinctive without qualifying that further!

Some Instinctive behaviours still require triggers (both environmental and psychological). Behaviours can be inhibited by environmental and psychological reasons as well.

And behaviours can be leant of course even if they were supposedly instinctive and didn't happen for what ever reason. (its not like she was physically incapable of meowing she just wasn't for what ever reason), so yes is perfectly possible that whatever reason your cat had to learn it later.

Quick question do you know her early history (when was she taken from her mother/litter)?

But yes glad she's not suffering in silence any more!

*not something I'd do!

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Old 11-12-2015, 10:02 AM   #34
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She is our special-ed kitty, so it's possible she has a pervasive development disorder. When we adopted her, she had a bad habit of running head first into closed doors. It took her a while to grow out of it.

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Quick question do you know her early history (when was she taken from her mother/litter)?
Not much. We know she was adopted from the Humane Society, and then returned - the cited reason was that she was incompatible with their pet bird. She does get excited about birds, so I buy that.
We adopted her at 7 months. We don't know how old she was when she was adopted or how old she was when returned. With her being so young I suspect she arrived at the humane society as a kitten, and usually that's with the rest of the litter and then they get a foster mom if they're orphaned, but no clue in this case.
She sucks on fingers like a baby with a soother/dummy; my vet tells me that this doesn't necessarily mean she was weaned early or bottle fed by humans. Some cats just like to suck on things (Siamese cats are famous for wool-sucking). Completely zones out, eyes kinda point in different directions, it's adorably derpy.

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But yes glad she's not suffering in silence any more!
I'm really pleased about it. I think she's less stressed, and I certainly worry less about her now that I'm faaairly sure she'll now meow if she gets stuck in the closet again. Last time she was there for we think 12 hours, and didn't say boo. We finally heard her pawing at the door (delicately). Didn't notice she was missing before because she occasionally just likes to sit under the bed or in a box or on a shelf for hours.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:18 AM   #35
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She is our special-ed kitty, so it's possible she has a pervasive development disorder. When we adopted her, she had a bad habit of running head first into closed doors. It took her a while to grow out of it.



Not much. We know she was adopted from the Humane Society, and then returned - the cited reason was that she was incompatible with their pet bird. She does get excited about birds, so I buy that.
We adopted her at 7 months. We don't know how old she was when she was adopted or how old she was when returned. With her being so young I suspect she arrived at the humane society as a kitten, and usually that's with the rest of the litter and then they get a foster mom if they're orphaned, but no clue in this case.
She sucks on fingers like a baby with a soother/dummy; my vet tells me that this doesn't necessarily mean she was weaned early or bottle fed by humans. Some cats just like to suck on things (Siamese cats are famous for wool-sucking). Completely zones out, eyes kinda point in different directions, it's adorably derpy.



I'm really pleased about it. I think she's less stressed, and I certainly worry less about her now that I'm faaairly sure she'll now meow if she gets stuck in the closet again. Last time she was there for we think 12 hours, and didn't say boo. We finally heard her pawing at the door (delicately). Didn't notice she was missing before because she occasionally just likes to sit under the bed or in a box or on a shelf for hours.
Yes ours love to sit on boxes (not necesserilliy in them) but definately on them
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:29 AM   #36
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Why do cats love boxes so much?

Nisse loves boxes. Especially small and snug ones. I think he feels safe there, and of course cardboard boxes also retain heat. Always a plus for cats.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:03 AM   #37
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She is our special-ed kitty, so it's possible she has a pervasive development disorder. When we adopted her, she had a bad habit of running head first into closed doors. It took her a while to grow out of it.
...
We had a cat that I'm sure was autistic. She simply could not understand basic cat social rules, but learned quite a bit of humans'. Knew how to lie, affecting a limp, to get treats, and had an intense phobia of kittens.

She learned how to meow to humans very early, but refused to lift her tail in acknowledgement of our greater size like every other cat I've ever seen.

I can't remember where I read it, but I've heard that cats quickly learned to alter their tones that get our attention the most effectively. Once those tones were studied, it was determined they matched those of crying babies quite well.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: Protecting your young

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Are there? (genuine question). I'm interested in how the archaeological record would show failed attempts, and not just a lack of evidence of it in certain locations and at certain times?

Don't get me wrong I'm sure it was never an automatic process that just required the initial impulse and availability!

"I'll just become that wild dog pack's alpha and then .... profit" is a bit optimistic ;-)
...
Genetic analysis of dog fossils that show no relatedness to modern dogs for one. As in obvious mastiff like dogs, not "can't tell if wolf or dog" skeletons.
At least one example from 35k years ago, while all dogs today originated much much more recently.
I've read of numerous ancient attempts to domesticate cattle, but genetic analysis shows that all modern examples descend from one time and place.
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:13 AM   #39
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Genetic analysis of dog fossils that show no relatedness to modern dogs for one. As in obvious mastiff like dogs, not "can't tell if wolf or dog" skeletons.
At least one example from 35k years ago, while all dogs today originated much much more recently.
I've read of numerous ancient attempts to domesticate cattle, but genetic analysis shows that all modern examples descend from one time and place.
That just demonstrates there's not an unbroken line between all historical instances and now?


Given the fossil record is famously gappy, I'd hesitate to extrapolate "absence of evidence = evidence of absence" scenarios from it
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