Alternatives to Unlimited Mana

oneofmanynameless · 09-23-2016, 03:08 PM

I'm wondering what modifications would have to be made to certain preexisting effects to make them line up, more or less, in terms of value, with the most standard Unlimited Mana system found in Thaumatology. I'm really open to other alternatives, but the three things I've thought of so far:

1. replace the calamity table with the Fright Check Table, Awe Check table, or Confusion Check Table to represent gradually driving yourself mad by straining your mind to cast the spell or use the abilities.
Issue: in a game that also uses the Stress and Derangement rules from Horror it seems like you should have spells cost Stress for this, right?

2. Casting spells costs years of your life, artificially aging you, instead of costing fatigue, energy, or racking up tally.
Issue: typically 1 HP of injury = 1 month of life (according to leach). This gives a much much larger initial pool of "energy" than unlimited mana would, but that "energy" is single use. Extended Lifespan, Longevity, and Unaging become much more valuable. Assuming Unaging doesn't just make all spells free is obvious, maybe instead it let's you "heal" age loss at a rate of say... 8 months per day back to whatever your "normal" age would be. Maybe you can then stack it with extended lifespan and longetivity to increase the size of your energy pool. Haven't done the math on how much energy that gives you to work with, whether the penalties that inflicts line up with the penalties that you get from calamities in a roughly equal way, etc.

2. Casting spells racks up radiation.
Issue: actually radiation is already roughly equivalent to HP and builds in a way that nicely mimics unlimited mana so this seems like it should b a pretty good candidate. Haven't worked the numbers.

Any thoughts anyone has on any of these three ideas or any other systems that might align with this I'd be very interested in hearing them, even if they aren't thoroughly worked out!

ericthered · 09-23-2016, 03:41 PM

Wait, would corruption work? you'd need to find the right "exchange rate", but I suspect its a good currency for unlimited mana.

I'd personally give mages the ability to work corruption away, but that's just one knob on this switchboard.

Anthony · 09-23-2016, 03:46 PM

Options 2 and 3 aren't really equivalent to umana, they're more equivalent to spells costing character points to cast, and they run into a problem of effectiveness scaling heavily with campaign duration (in a one-shot game, who cares if my character ages five years during the game? In a game that runs a hundred sessions, on the other hand...).

Flyndaran · 09-23-2016, 03:47 PM

Most canon versions of Spirit Contracts and Corruption are overly harsh and not very suitable to PC magic users, in my opinion.
A slightly more practical if not much easier method of shedding the bad juju or a more favorable conversion rate would go a long way to making it less "You're a mage? Oh, we're going to have to put down the monster you become by next issue."
And more akin to how many of us think of weasely defend anyone, no matter how guilty, lawyers. We loathe them until we need them, then want the most weasely, most morally bankrupt one we can find.

Nereidalbel · 09-23-2016, 04:01 PM

1. For this, the strain comes from every failed spell cast, with a modifier on the table equal to the margin of failure. Critical failures are 3 rolls on the table, rather than the spell backfiring in a horrible manner. With a modifier of 10, of course.

2. Steal Youth becomes a VERY popular spell, especially among the less-than-good mage types.

3. Resist Radiation either doesn't exist, or, it becomes the best spell ever.

Flyndaran · 09-23-2016, 04:18 PM

Magical radiation is of a warping variety not mundane EM/beta/alpha/neutron types.
Carefully travel enough banestorms and eventually you'll age backwards. Woot! Free "time" for magic use. ;)

oneofmanynameless · 04-05-2017, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Magical radiation is of a warping variety not mundane EM/beta/alpha/neutron types.
Carefully travel enough banestorms and eventually you'll age backwards. Woot! Free "time" for magic use. ;)

Sorry for some necromancy. I needed to return to the topic. But this reminds me of the special rules for "Weird Radiation" from GURPS Powers: The Wierd. I think those rules are certainly appropriate for radiation accumulations as the result of magic! However, On the subject of radiation: I'm having trouble figuring out how much 1 FP should equal with normal radiation rules (I'd assume 1 rad?) vs. with the simplified ATE radiation rules (I'd... assume 1 RP?)

Also, I'm very curious at other options. And finally, anyone have any idea how much having access to an "alternative" energy pool to cast from should generally be worth?

oneofmanynameless · 04-07-2017, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

Wait, would corruption work? you'd need to find the right "exchange rate", but I suspect its a good currency for unlimited mana.

I'd personally give mages the ability to work corruption away, but that's just one knob on this switchboard.

Actually, as far as I can tell: 1 corruption = 1 ER. Working out the numbers based on Impulse Buy's exchange ratio of 1 cp = 25 ER, and noticing that every 25 corruption = -1 cp... well, seems to line up. I'm using this as a secondary system for powers in my current game which is powers based and involves a LOT of power stunts: characters have a Unlimited Mana tally threshold (called Distortion, in game) and access to corruption. Power critical failures include rolls on spell critical failure tables depending on the energy source used (if both are used for a given stunt then the worse is rolled on!) Etc.

Ghostdancer once pointed out that corruption isn't very enticing at it's current ratio except to really desperate characters. In a short run game it's fine, but in a long run game there's little point to use it if you've got another option. To deal with that problem I give players advantages of my design equal in power to any disadvantages they accumulate. The disads are all supernatural weaknesses of various types (like weakness, vulnerability, dread, dependency, etc) and the advantages are all themed, so as they draw on more corruption they gradually turn into vampires, werewolves, demons, etc!

That actually feels pretty balanced in play. The corruption results in a change of your character into something that is less and less your character and less and less under your control, with more distinct and glaring weaknesses that enemies will take advantage of if they find out. Not necessarily weaker, per say, just... inhuman, evil, uncontrollable... one of the monsters you hunt.

(E) · 04-07-2017, 03:00 PM

I've played with the Ageing based idea before, good for big magic. It worked best in a solo game where the pace of the game wasn't held up by the characters down time. I had a custom advantage "age backwards while asleep" with a couple of add ons like works better at ley lines and crystal sleep chambers. Note beware dark and evil sorcerers with acne whose voices are breaking.

Another one I have played with but not implimented is a centralized power source for all the (official) mages in an empire. Both these ideas are written up as threads here somewhere.

KarlKost · 04-07-2017, 09:03 PM

Usually, Magic requires PRACTICE (unless it is a totally inborn gift or a bless/curse that isn't learned AT ALL).

In that case, however, it REALLY is impossible to acquire magical prowess with systems like corruption.

How will I learn fireball well enough for field use, if before safely using it under stress I'll need to practice it 1000 times in my Sanctum (under a controles enviroment), but doing so would damn my soul and turn me into a monster (or an old man)?

09-23-2016, 03:08 PM	#1
oneofmanynameless Join Date: May 2012 Location: New Hampshire, USA	Alternatives to Unlimited Mana I'm wondering what modifications would have to be made to certain preexisting effects to make them line up, more or less, in terms of value, with the most standard Unlimited Mana system found in Thaumatology. I'm really open to other alternatives, but the three things I've thought of so far: 1. replace the calamity table with the Fright Check Table, Awe Check table, or Confusion Check Table to represent gradually driving yourself mad by straining your mind to cast the spell or use the abilities. Issue: in a game that also uses the Stress and Derangement rules from Horror it seems like you should have spells cost Stress for this, right? 2. Casting spells costs years of your life, artificially aging you, instead of costing fatigue, energy, or racking up tally. Issue: typically 1 HP of injury = 1 month of life (according to leach). This gives a much much larger initial pool of "energy" than unlimited mana would, but that "energy" is single use. Extended Lifespan, Longevity, and Unaging become much more valuable. Assuming Unaging doesn't just make all spells free is obvious, maybe instead it let's you "heal" age loss at a rate of say... 8 months per day back to whatever your "normal" age would be. Maybe you can then stack it with extended lifespan and longetivity to increase the size of your energy pool. Haven't done the math on how much energy that gives you to work with, whether the penalties that inflicts line up with the penalties that you get from calamities in a roughly equal way, etc. 2. Casting spells racks up radiation. Issue: actually radiation is already roughly equivalent to HP and builds in a way that nicely mimics unlimited mana so this seems like it should b a pretty good candidate. Haven't worked the numbers. Any thoughts anyone has on any of these three ideas or any other systems that might align with this I'd be very interested in hearing them, even if they aren't thoroughly worked out!

09-23-2016, 03:41 PM	#2
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana Wait, would corruption work? you'd need to find the right "exchange rate", but I suspect its a good currency for unlimited mana. I'd personally give mages the ability to work corruption away, but that's just one knob on this switchboard. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

09-23-2016, 03:46 PM	#3
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana Options 2 and 3 aren't really equivalent to umana, they're more equivalent to spells costing character points to cast, and they run into a problem of effectiveness scaling heavily with campaign duration (in a one-shot game, who cares if my character ages five years during the game? In a game that runs a hundred sessions, on the other hand...). __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

09-23-2016, 03:47 PM	#4
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana Most canon versions of Spirit Contracts and Corruption are overly harsh and not very suitable to PC magic users, in my opinion. A slightly more practical if not much easier method of shedding the bad juju or a more favorable conversion rate would go a long way to making it less "You're a mage? Oh, we're going to have to put down the monster you become by next issue." And more akin to how many of us think of weasely defend anyone, no matter how guilty, lawyers. We loathe them until we need them, then want the most weasely, most morally bankrupt one we can find. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

09-23-2016, 04:01 PM	#5
Nereidalbel Join Date: May 2013 Location: Ellicott City, MD	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana 1. For this, the strain comes from every failed spell cast, with a modifier on the table equal to the margin of failure. Critical failures are 3 rolls on the table, rather than the spell backfiring in a horrible manner. With a modifier of 10, of course. 2. Steal Youth becomes a VERY popular spell, especially among the less-than-good mage types. 3. Resist Radiation either doesn't exist, or, it becomes the best spell ever.

09-23-2016, 04:18 PM	#6
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana Magical radiation is of a warping variety not mundane EM/beta/alpha/neutron types. Carefully travel enough banestorms and eventually you'll age backwards. Woot! Free "time" for magic use. ;) __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

04-07-2017, 03:00 PM	#9
(E) Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: New Zealand.	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana I've played with the Ageing based idea before, good for big magic. It worked best in a solo game where the pace of the game wasn't held up by the characters down time. I had a custom advantage "age backwards while asleep" with a couple of add ons like works better at ley lines and crystal sleep chambers. Note beware dark and evil sorcerers with acne whose voices are breaking. Another one I have played with but not implimented is a centralized power source for all the (official) mages in an empire. Both these ideas are written up as threads here somewhere. __________________ Waiting for inspiration to strike...... And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn

04-07-2017, 09:03 PM	#10
KarlKost Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Brazil	Re: Alternatives to Unlimited Mana Usually, Magic requires PRACTICE (unless it is a totally inborn gift or a bless/curse that isn't learned AT ALL). In that case, however, it REALLY is impossible to acquire magical prowess with systems like corruption. How will I learn fireball well enough for field use, if before safely using it under stress I'll need to practice it 1000 times in my Sanctum (under a controles enviroment), but doing so would damn my soul and turn me into a monster (or an old man)?