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Old 07-05-2018, 07:02 PM   #51
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

I'm reading these and thinking about them.

Please, everyone, no argument by insult. Not even clever insults. If I don't get to call my players names - and I don't - then nobody else does either.

Guy - is a direct call to a stat really metagaming, or is it just coding in machine language?
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:37 PM   #52
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

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Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
If a GM is to weak minded for them to work in his or her game it is not the faulty of the GMs with more than 2 brain cells to rub together.
Nope, we're not doing this. Take three days off and don't be a jerk when you come back if you want to keep posting here.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:46 PM   #53
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

I wonder how far this paragraph would go toward regulating issues?

Items that act directly on attributes, increasing ST, DX, or IQ, are a special case. Only the most powerful one works; if you had a ring granting +2 DX and another granting +1, only the more powerful one would work. And you may get only a total of +5 to attributes from magic items.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:54 PM   #54
Wayne
 
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

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Only the most powerful one works; if you had a ring granting +2 DX and another granting +1, only the more powerful one would work.
Being pedantic I would specify "Only the most powerful one works (per attribute); if you had a ring granting +2 DX and another granting +1 DX", only the more powerful one would work.

You may combine +2 DX, +2 IQ, and +1 ST for example.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:08 PM   #55
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

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Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
Being pedantic I would specify ...
Building on what Wayne suggested (good job!), I would write:

"Only the most powerful one works (per attribute); if you had a ring granting +2 DX and another granting +1 DX, only the more powerful DX item would work. Further, you may get only a total of +5 to attributes from magic items.

For example: Items giving: +2 DX, +2 IQ, and +1 ST are legal, but no further attributes can be gained with magic, as the rule of 5 has been reached."



This is a bit wordy, but I think that you NEED those words to be absolutely clear what is meant. (If this IS in fact what you mean.)

I hope that the price of attribute adders are greatly increased.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 07-05-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:41 PM   #56
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

That's only slightly different from how they already work. They already don't stack, per Advanced Wizard page 34 detailed rule on such items (despite it possibly appearing otherwise/contradictory in the more general Rule Of Five section on Advanced Wizard page 25). Only the +5 total limit across attributes is new (and is unclear as suggested in that doesn't specify how the limit would apply).

While that would be a welcome step in the right direction, it's a step that only matters if you already have +5 (!) from attribute adders and are looking to pile on more.

Seems to me making them more interesting (limited and/or having some disadvantage to use) and more difficult/expensive to create would be best.
(e.g.
* Rick's earlier ideas splitting the effects of attribute bonuses into separate enchantment types, and/or
* they're limited to raising the attribute to a certain modest level, or the level of the corpse of someone used as an enchantment ingredient, and/or
* they use fatigue to use, and/or
* they only work for a random period and then they have the opposite effect but you can't immediately tell, or
* whatever).

And/or just add a note to GMs about choosing whether they want them to be a known enchantment or not (or suggesting they invent drawbacks to the known versions of enchantments they think are a bit much or not interesting enough).
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:16 AM   #57
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
That's only slightly different from how they already work. ...

While that would be a welcome step in the right direction, it's a step that only matters if you already have +5 (!) from attribute adders and are looking to pile on more.

Seems to me making them more interesting (limited and/or having some disadvantage to use) and more difficult/expensive to create would be best.
(e.g.
* Rick's earlier ideas splitting the effects of attribute bonuses into separate enchantment types, and/or
* they're limited to raising the attribute to a certain modest level, or the level of the corpse of someone used as an enchantment ingredient, and/or
* they use fatigue to use, and/or
* they only work for a random period and then they have the opposite effect but you can't immediately tell, or
* whatever).

And/or just add a note to GMs about choosing whether they want them to be a known enchantment or not (or suggesting they invent drawbacks to the known versions of enchantments they think are a bit much or not interesting enough).
Hi Skarg,
I agree with you. (Altho, characters being able to buy +5 attributes is certainly better than being able to buy +15 attributes.) I had really hoped that without the attribute adders, we could increase the attributes you could earn to +10, (so you could become a 42 attribute figure with experience). The last two attributes could be VERY expensive, and it would seriously distinguish maxed out characters from the run of mill hero.

luguvalium wrote earlier that each such item could come with a MAXIMUM attribute limit. So you might find a +2 DX ring (Max DX 16), which can improve your DX to 16, but not better. This would make getting a modest boost not too hard, but it could be worth a serious quest to steal a legendary +3 (max DX 26) ring from the local king. (The bastard only has a DX 14 so it is WASTED on him!!!)

You (Skarg) suggested that they cost fatigue ST to use. If the majority of them could be only used for a limited amount of time, it would be cool. For example, this belt of ST can costs a fatigue ST, but gives you +4 ST for 15 minutes. This +1 IQ ring costs 0 fST, but only works for 3 hours / day. Again, items that take less effort to use and last for longer times could be much more valuable items well worth making a great effort to gain.

Make the base items (zero cost, lasts 24 hours a day, no maximum attribute limit) VERY expensive, and wizards might make cheaper, limited versions fairly often. Which gives the GM a perfect excuse to drop a more limited item in the dungeon.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-06-2018, 06:57 AM   #58
guymc
 
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Guy - is a direct call to a stat really metagaming, or is it just coding in machine language?
Hm. OK, good analogy.

I still want to encourage thinking in terms of “the ring makes you stronger” rather than “the ring raises your ST one point”, but I suppose that’s really a function of the GM.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:23 AM   #59
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OK, it appears that limiting attribute adding items is something most of you see as a good idea, even if not totally agreed on how to accomplish it. I like the idea of giving an adder item a top end (+1 DX, max DX 14), but I’m not sure in the long tun it is worth the complication to the record keeping and creation costs.

Of all the suggestions, the simplest and most elegant seems to be to allow only one item of a type to be used, and for the most powerful one to be the only one that works. Thus, You can wear a +2 DX ring, but putting on a +1 DX ring as well doesn’t give you +3 DX. I also like limiting the total adds to +5 (although that arbitrary limit is sorta metagaming). But, if you are wearing a +2 ST ring and a +2 DX necklace and then put on a +2 IQ tiara, what happens?
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:58 AM   #60
zot
 
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Default Re: Attribute Adding Magic Items

Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post
OK, it appears that limiting attribute adding items is something most of you see as a good idea, even if not totally agreed on how to accomplish it. I like the idea of giving an adder item a top end (+1 DX, max DX 14), but I’m not sure in the long tun it is worth the complication to the record keeping and creation costs.

Of all the suggestions, the simplest and most elegant seems to be to allow only one item of a type to be used, and for the most powerful one to be the only one that works. Thus, You can wear a +2 DX ring, but putting on a +1 DX ring as well doesn’t give you +3 DX. I also like limiting the total adds to +5 (although that arbitrary limit is sorta metagaming). But, if you are wearing a +2 ST ring and a +2 DX necklace and then put on a +2 IQ tiara, what happens?
The rule of 5 states that functioning items continue to function and later ones that violate the rule of 5 don't function.
So I'd rule that the tiara does not function magically at all, even if it has other non-attribute capabilities.

I don't see how a +N attribute limit is metagaming. These are rules for how magic items are limited, phrased so that the players and GM have no misunderstanding. It's not how people in the world perceive or describe it, nor should it be.

Also, this is about magic at the lowest level and magic, like the Aid spell, does affect attributes in a raw, direct way.

Last edited by zot; 07-06-2018 at 08:07 AM. Reason: comment about metagaming
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