Rules question: Move-and-Attack

[Rabenrecht]

Move-and-Attack say that your adjusted skill cannot be higher then 9.

Is that after all modifiers have been added? That is after everything is said and done 9 is the highest you can get?

Or is it rather that your current value of the attack stat plus all static modifiers -4 (for melee attacks) is caped at 9, which is then the basis for any further (situational/temporary) modifiers like hit location penalties?

If it is the former I would see no reason not to use any points in excess of 9 to funel into deceptive attack, hit loction etc. which would go against the "poorly aimed" description of the maneuver.

[Antiquation!]

As far as I'm aware, the cap takes place after all modifiers have been applied.

You are correct about the possibility of "using up" skill levels in excess of 9 on things like Deceptive Attack, etc. but also keep in mind those should have their own minimum acceptable skill levels enforced to keep this kind of tactic limited to appropriately skilled combatants.

[kdtipa]

Just for clarity, that -4 with a max of 9 is for melee attacks. For ranged attacks it's -2 or the bulk of the weapon whichever is worse.

The wording from the book for the melee part is...

If you are making a melee attack, you have a flat -4 to skill, and your adjusted skill cannot exceed 9.

I've always read that to mean that you apply the -4 to your base skill level, and if it's higher than 9, you use 9 instead. After that you apply any other penalties, like targeting a specific body part, darkness, deceptive attack, and so on.

And that makes the most sense to me anyway. Example situation:

Swordsman A has a broadsword skill of 19, and he's making a "move and attack" at Target B. He chooses to swing at the neck for the -5 penalty.

The way I read the official rules, 19 - 4 = 15, but that's too high for the Move and Attack, so his effective skill is 9. He's swinging at the neck, so his current effective skill is 4.

To do it the other way, and apply penalties before the max allowed level, it would be 19 - 9 (the -4 and the -5 for the neck), for a result of 10. Still too high for the max, so his effective skill is 9. In that case he'd have the same chance to hit the torso as the neck with a move and attack, which doesn't make sense to me.

[sir_pudding]

Aren't wild swings always against random locations, or was that a 3e rule?

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Aren't wild swings always against random locations, or was that a 3e rule?

I think that might have been 3e. This isn't a wild swing... just a less accurate attack because you're moving.

[Rabenrecht]

Ok, I gather that this is an at least somewhat unclear part of the rules, and something that is often subject to individual GMs rulings.

A Wild Swing is an attack option that you can choose in place of specifying a hit location. And some forms of attacks default to Wild Swings (like Back Attacks).

Good catch on the fact that the cap of 9 only applies to melee attacks. This cerainly helps to faciliate the "nimble and mobile ranged fighter" archetype.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I've always read that to mean that you apply the -4 to your base skill level, and if it's higher than 9, you use 9 instead. After that you apply any other penalties, like targeting a specific body part, darkness, deceptive attack, and so on.

Conversely, I've always read it to mean that the cap applies last, after all modifiers. Even in this paradigm, note that Deceptive Attack and Move and Attack are incompatible - Deceptive Attack specifies your effective skill has to be 10 or higher, while Move and Attack caps it at 9. Kromm takes this interpretation, by the way - see here for an example of him treating it that way, and a discussion on why he feels hit location penalties make sense to apply before the cap, not after.

[Anaraxes]

Not so unclear, I don't think.

The text for Move and Attack uses the phrase "adjusted skill", not "effective skill", but it seems that this is a synonym for effective skill -- that is, skill after all modifiers have been added. The summary of melee modifiers on B547 reads " If any modifier marked with an asterisk (*) applies, adjusted skill after all modifiers cannot exceed 9." (Move and Attack is one of the few marked modifiers, along with total darkness.) The intro to the section says "figure your effective skill by... Applying the relevant conditional modifiers below...", which is why I say "effective" and "adjusted" seem to be synonyms.

In this post, Kromm implies that other modifiers like hit location come before the cap of 9 is applied (as the B547 text says). Higher skill does let you get away with more during a Move and Attack, like targeted locations, even though it doesn't raise your chance of a hit of some sort.

Martial Arts seems pretty clear:

Originally Posted by MA107

Move and Attack
Most melee attack options (e.g., hit location) are compatible with Move and Attack. Assess penalties for these before applying the effective skill limit of 9.

(The text goes on to discuss common exceptions, such as Deceptive Attack, because that requires a final effective skill of 10.)

Of course, some people simply don't like that cap, and so change it for their games. Some genres also might call for highly mobile flyby attacks, and so you might ignore the rule for your wuxia combats.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Counterattack is nearly as good as Deceptive at -2 parry for -5 to skill (better if you buy it up) and I don't think it requires final skill to be 10+ so that is an alternative. Not so good if enemy is a good blocker/dodger.

So you somehow make an active defense, then Move and Attack and then exploit the vulnerability caused by the attack you defended against? Yeah that isn't going to happen very often but sure, if it somehow does, go ahead.

[mr beer]

I read it as a final cap of 9, applied after all other modifiers.

One of my smarter players picked up on this and piled on the Deceptive Attacks to take his pre-capped skill down to either 9 or 10.

So now the group uses it as standard if charging into combat, which I'm fine with. They still hit less than half the time so a Move-and-Attack is way worse than an Attack.