Learning Skills and Advantages

[Donny Brook]

My way is:

-Improvement Through Study only applies when the campaign skips over some kind of 'down-time'.

-Earned character points can only be spent on character improvements at the end of play sessions, and only when they meet one of the cases below.

-Every character has a declared 'long term saving' project to which they automatically apply one earned character point at the end of each session (we usually give 2-3/session). This must be a characteristic with a final cost of at least 10cp, usually an attribute but could also be Advantages acquireable in the setting or buying off a Disad. Once the savings have reached half the price the character has the option to buy out the purchase with other earned CP if they have any. When a purchase is completed, a new saving project is chosen.

-A character can declare one thing that they are 'kind of working on in the background'. After 'enough' game time passes a character may put an earned character point into this. ('Enough' is a GM judgement call, based on the characteristic involved and the amount of time that it seems likely could have been going on in the background.)

-An earned character point can be applied to a skill or a technique of a skill the character already has if the character made substantive use of the skill/technique in that game session. The estimation of 'substantive' is a GM call and greater scrutiny is applied when the point spent will give a level-up, and the GM may require the character to roll higher than his current skill level to be allowed to spend the point.

-A character point can be spent toward a skill he does not have if succeeds spectacularly or in narratively significant way on a default use of the skill. (Skills without defaults or teachers in the setting can only be learned after first Inventing it.)

-A CP can be applied to a primary or secondary attribute if the GM agrees that in-play activities could reasonably result in an improvement. (A lot of hiking over the last several weeks? Okay, spend a point toward HT. You were direct-mind-linked to a super-human genius while in stasis? Okay, spend a point toward IQ.)

-A CP can be applied to an acquirable Advantage or to buy off a Disadvantage if relevant in-play events support it. (E.G. the character comes up with one or more really good put-downs of opponents -- a point could be spent toward Rapier Wit. Or the character takes some nasty spills or bad beatings but has to carry on -- a point could go toward High Pain Threshold.)

-CP spent under any of these categories is tracked separately until the required total for the purchase is reached. A separate count is also kept of unallocated earned points.

[Bilanthri]

Originally Posted by Mithlas

There have to be alternatives, especially if you're in a restricted setting like a post-apocalypse where you're trying to pick up Mechanics to fix the tractor so your town doesn't die of starvation. Or you want to learn Psychic Lance to fight back against Ethereal aliens besetting humanity but you're (among the) first humans to "awaken".

I find these opportunities often rely on GM cooperation. When a good GM knows a player's goals and aspirations, those goals will find their way into the story.

Example 1: One of the old crates your team salvaged out of the derelict strip-mall a few weeks ago happened to be full of books. And a few of them cover internal combustion engine maintenance.

Example 2: A character is targeted by a Psychic Lance attack but resists (or at least survives) and then has their own psychic breakthrough, manifesting in the lowest level of the attack that they experienced.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mithlas

Thanks for the responses and clarifications.

That's part of where my confusion comes in, as I couldn't find examples of how to solve skills acquired during gaming. Implications of skill and power progression yes, but not examples of how fast progression should be in certain types of games. It's possible I've missed them, working full time and going to uni full time can do that.

As johndallman pointed out, there are also skills that have no defaults and there's got to be a way to get those without somehow finding a teacher. There have to be alternatives, especially if you're in a restricted setting like a post-apocalypse where you're trying to pick up Mechanics to fix the tractor so your town doesn't die of starvation. Or you want to learn Psychic Lance to fight back against Ethereal aliens besetting humanity but you're (among the) first humans to "awaken".

What about adding skills during a game (as during rest breaks)? Can a thief who used a lot of Lockpicking, loafing about on a cart when the team "fast travels" to Town B, add a level to his Lockpicking skill before getting there if he has the character points?

This really depends on the GM and what kind of feeling the GM wants for their game. This is also effected by how many cp a GM gives per session. Some GMs let players buy whatever they want whenever they want as long as they have the points for it, and let the new acquisition take effect whenever. There are not a lot of skills that don't have defaults, many of them that do seem mystical/supernatural. Some GMs don't have a problem with a PC picking up one of those skills just because they feel like it, some do. Some GMs would allow it in a cinematic game but not a realistic one. You have to decide what you like. As for how long it takes to get things, if you give lots of points per session you can get big things quickly, if you give fewer points per session you get things more slowly. That is also preference.

I am on the stricter and stingier end of the spectrum in most of my games, though I loosen up if I'm running more cinematic games.

So here is an example.

There is a PC who is playing a research librarian. He has lots of mental skills that are class appropriate...and not much outside of that.

The adventure involves missing artifacts. The last session involved the research librarian using Research to find out about the artifacts. Then the librarian had to Fast Talk a special collections librarian to give him access to a special medieval manuscript. The librarian didn't have the Fast Talk skill, so had to do so off of default and was successful. He then later tried to use Forgery off of default to make a fake security badge so he could sneak back into the special collections of the Smithsonian. He failed that roll terribly and the session ends with him facing a hostile security guard who found him out and thinks look like they are about to get violent. Session ends and cp are awarded.

Now, because I am stingy, I award between 1-3 cp per session, and I'd probably award 2cp for that one.
Other GMs often award 3-5cp. That makes a big difference.

So, the player wants to spend cp on:

a) A point of Strength
b) A point of Intelligence
c) A level of Research
d) A level of Fast Talk
e) A level of Forgery
f) A level of Boxing
g) A Mental Stun psychic power
h) The special collections librarian as an Ally
i) the Create Fire spell

Some GMs would say yes to any of those assuming they exist in the universe. I don't. There has to be a successful roll on a skill, evidence of working on something over time, getting a teacher, RP justification.

So, for me:
a) Not unless the player had told me the PC had been regularly weight training on their off time...because there was no evidence of using ST at all in the last session.
b) The PC had been using a variety of Mental skills and generally exercising their brains successfully. Sure.
c) They used the skill successfully, sure. The skill goes up. I don't demand downtime. The PC successfully research and that learned how to research better, now they are better.
d) They used the skill successfully off of default. Sure
e) They did not use the skill successfully. No.
f) They didn't even attempt Boxing this session. No.
g) I need to decide how psychic power are gained in my world. If I decide that people can just manifest whatever psychic power they want in times of stress? Then being confronted by the guard would count and I'd say yes. If that is not how I imagine psychic powers working, then no.
h) The player could ask me if they could take the Special Collections librarian as an Ally...and then I'd assess if the RP justified it. It might have, or it might not have. Maybe it only justified the librarian as a contact for now, but could become an ally later. Maybe ally-ship is justified. But for things like Ally, that tends to be an RP reward I give on top of the 2cp. Though, if a player wants to deliberately cultivate someone, they just need to RP it and I'll usually say yes.
i) I'd have to decide how magic spells are gained in my world. If they are manifest in a person during times of stress or because of some trigger...sure. If not, no.

You decide how you want your games to go.

[Lucian]

Here's my system in my game ( found in signature)
.
Firstly it's important to note that for my adventuring
Party I found a day by dividing into three.

This is 8 hours of sleep, free time, and travel.
If my party is well supplied, and they don't need that 8 hours to hunt, gather, or survive they have the option of studying or practicing.

I ask the player what skill do you want to learn and at what level?

Wrestling at skill 15 ?
Ok assuming, someone is available nearby to spar with...

I use 200 hrs per point for very hard skills
150 hrs per point for hard
100 hours per point for average
50 hours for easy.

So your dx is 11 you need dx +4
You'll need X points and thus y hours before you reach skill level 15'

Now we use a mini calendar during play to track hours.

I like this system because it reflects both the difficulty of the skill, the level of your governing attributes, and time invested.

A high dx player will achieve a reliable level of wrestling faster than a lower dx player

[Mithlas]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

My way is:
-Every character has a declared 'long term saving' project to which they automatically apply one earned character point at the end of each session (we usually give 2-3/session). This must be a characteristic with a final cost of at least 10cp, usually an attribute but could also be Advantages acquireable in the setting or buying off a Disad. Once the savings have reached half the price the character has the option to buy out the purchase with other earned CP if they have any. When a purchase is completed, a new saving project is chosen.

-A character can declare one thing that they are 'kind of working on in the background'. After 'enough' game time passes a character may put an earned character point into this. ('Enough' is a GM judgement call, based on the characteristic involved and the amount of time that it seems likely could have been going on in the background.)

I like the idea of a character goal constantly worked on in the background, though I'm pretty sure my group would not want the bookkeeping of the saving project. I dislike it because it reminds me a lot of WEG's Star Wars method of trying to advance an attribute, though that may be association with a particularly bad GM.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

(Skills without defaults or teachers in the setting can only be learned after first Inventing it.

Having to Invent a skill you don't have sounds like one way to go about it, but as Invention in Campaigns only mentions items and requires a skill roll of its own. I speculate that you'd use any tangentially related skill (Psychology to invent brainwashing, Soldier for Breath Control if the PC is a soldier trying to learn to avoid a new means of circumventing CS gas)?

Originally Posted by Bilanthri

I find these opportunities often rely on GM cooperation.

One of the old crates your team salvaged out of the derelict strip-mall a few weeks ago happened to be full of books. And a few of them cover internal combustion engine maintenance.

I agree these things have to be done with the GM (otherwise you've got GM and players going two different ways), but learning from books looks like just another means of downtime like with a teacher. I've personally seen people with no mechanical experience go at trying to patch up an engine and manage to gain a better understanding of what proper mechanics intend. Whether you succeed or fail, you can learn something. That's how Rocket Science got its start. Exploding cars optional.

Originally Posted by Lucian

I use 200 hrs per point for very hard skills
150 hrs per point for hard
100 hours per point for average
50 hours for easy.

Now we use a mini calendar during play to track hours.

So you basically apply the same system for learning with a teacher as the book has (with some modification for skill difficulty). I suppose that reduces any disparity between skills used that session and skills not (available), though it's reintroducing the bookkeeping.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mithlas

I agree these things have to be done with the GM (otherwise you've got GM and players going two different ways), but learning from books looks like just another means of downtime like with a teacher. I've personally seen people with no mechanical experience go at trying to patch up an engine and manage to gain a better understanding of what proper mechanics intend. Whether you succeed or fail, you can learn something. That's how Rocket Science got its start. Exploding cars optional.

Mechanics has a default. So by my way of doing it, the PC attempts to make Mechanics rolls on default in game and if they succeed they can put a cp in it.

Or if they don't want to do this in game time, they can do self study in non-game time.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Mithlas

So you basically apply the same system for learning with a teacher as the book has (with some modification for skill difficulty). I suppose that reduces any disparity between skills used that session and skills not (available), though it's reintroducing the bookkeeping.

If you want less bookkeeping (though not zero bookkeeping), take a look at the monthly study rolls system in GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School.