Fragmented States of America circa 1930

[RyanW]

The background for an upcoming campaign involves the collapse of the US into multiple states some time in the 20s, after a worse Great War and Spanish flu (but not apocalyptically so). It doesn't need to be completely plausible, but I'd like at least some broad strokes of how the lines would be drawn in the resulting new countries. A couple things I intend to feature:

• Mormon state of Deseret.
• Free City of New York (Republic of Tammany to it's detractors)
• Republics of Texas and California.
• At least one People's Republic.
• New Confederacy in the Deep South.
• Two or three competing "restored" United States.

Any other ideas, or guesses where lines might be drawn?

[MadWombat]

While not fully detailed, if you can get your hands on any Crimson Skies source material it might be useful as it is set around your time frame.

[lwcamp]

What happens to Canada and Mexico? Would parts of Arizona and New Mexico revert to Mexican rule?

Perhaps a combined Oregon, Washington, and western Idaho panhandle (along with possibly parts of Brittish Columbia, and if so southern Alaska) would unite to form a Pacific state; call it Cascadia or Columbia or something. An alternative would be one nation comprising the west Cascades and coastal regions while a separate nation claims the Columbia plateau.

The Great Plains forms a wide expanse of territory without significant natural obstacles - Great Plains states would likely remain united (or quickly be re-integrated by some expansionist ruler). The Mississippi and Missouri Rivers would help to facilitate commerce and communication and tie this region together.

Similarly, but on a much smaller scale, the Snake River Plain would likely remain a single political entity. Whether it is part of any other political entity is up for grabs. The Rocky Mountains may make travel difficult enough that much of that land could break up into feuding micro-states controlled by local warlords.

Since Hoover Dam was never constructed, Nevada and Arizona are probably desert wastelands, useless for much in the way of agriculture and nearly impossible to support cities. Some stockmen might eke out a meager existence and the native peoples would continue to live as they always have, but these might be areas that no one really cares to claim.

Luke

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

What happens to Canada and Mexico?

The British Empire (and most other world powers) have also collapsed, or survived by turning their attention inward, so I suspect Canada has also fragmented to some degree. Successor states that straddle the former border might be likely. Mexico's revolution may have gone drastically different, but I'd need to read a bit more before I could come up with anything.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Since Hoover Dam was never constructed, Nevada and Arizona are probably desert wastelands, useless for much in the way of agriculture and nearly impossible to support cities. Some stockmen might eke out a meager existence and the native peoples would continue to live as they always have, but these might be areas that no one really cares to claim.

Hmm, it's true nobody really cared about the southern strip of New Mexico and Arizona until it was realized it made good ground for transcontinental rail. I suspect Texas and California might be see those stockmen and natives as a buffer state.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Will Shetterly's and Vince Stone's Captain Confederacy has a map of the fragmented states of America in their ATU. The comic itself features some information of the rest of the world (British Empire defeated, Germany and Japan the two superpowers, Canada and Mexico both there but somewhat diminished, etc.).


Hans

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by RyanW

The background for an upcoming campaign involves the collapse of the US into multiple states some time in the 20s, after a worse Great War and Spanish flu (but not apocalyptically so). It doesn't need to be completely plausible, but I'd like at least some broad strokes of how the lines would be drawn in the resulting new countries. A couple things I intend to feature:

• Mormon state of Deseret.
• Free City of New York (Republic of Tammity to it's detractors)
• Republics of Texas and California.
• At least one People's Republic.
• New Confederacy in the Deep South.
• Two or three competing "restored" United States.

Any other ideas, or guesses where lines might be drawn?

Look at the Wikipedia articles for the 1920 and 1924 presidential elections. There are lots maps there (the ones for the 1920 Republican convention, which went through 10 ballots before actually picking a candidate give you a feel for just how fragmented things *could* get. The Democrats needed 22 ballots to pick a candidate that year, and there were fairly strong 3d parties (Progressive and Socialist) in play.

Texas looks plausible, though at 4 or 5% of the population it's smallish. California looks to group fairly strongly with the other western states (Oregon and Washington at least, 5 or 6%).

I think Deseret is pretty dead by 1920, I suppose Utah, Nevada, south Idaho and north Arizona is heavily Mormon, but at less than a million people between them kinda doubtfully viable. I guess it's about as populous as Albania and maybe has a similar more trouble to invade than it's worth vibe to it.

Separating NYC from the rest of New York at this point looks iffy (Al Smith, a Tammany candidate for sure, won substantial chunks of the upstate vote in all his terms as governor).

The New Confederacy at this point can't quite overlap the old South - it's not likely Kentucky, Tennessee or Arkansas, or for that matter western Virginia or North Carolina would go along with it. Still roughly 15% of the population

Any of the states touching the Great Lakes will probably do for a People's Republic. Wisconsin-Minnesota-Dakota looks plausible too, that'd be about 6% of the population.

Once you peel off the Pacific, the Confederacy and New York, getting several separate competing United States is harder than you might think. I guess an independent New York (about 10% of the population, add New Jersey and bump it to 13%) splits New England (about 8%) from the belt of lakeside states (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois - 28%), I guess you can make those and the border states (Kentucky-Tennessee-West Virginia-Western Virginia-Western North Carolina - 7%) competing Unions.

[Captain Midnight]

You should also keep in mind that state borders aren't necessarily all that meaningful when things really go off the rails. For example, I grew up in Memphis, which has a whole lot more in common with Mississippi and Arkansas than the rest of Tennessee (and stronger economic links, too). You might see western Tennessee and Kentucky appending themselves to whatever grouping controlled the lower Mississippi River, where eastern Tennessee has a lot more in common with eastern Kentucky, northern Georgia, and western Virginia and North Carolina.

There are lots of other possibilities, depending on how detailed you want to get. Maryland might well swallow Delaware, for example, and New England has a lot of very artificial boundaries.

[quarkstomper]

Milwaukee had a number of Socialist mayors during the first half of the 20th Century. They were sometimes derided by More Serious Thinkers as "Sewer Socialists" because they were more interested in improving the city's infastructure than in Marxist ideological purity.

You might also look into some of the Farmer's political organizations from the early 20th Century as possible nuclei for splinter states.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

What happens to Canada and Mexico? Would parts of Arizona and New Mexico revert to Mexican rule?

Perhaps a combined Oregon, Washington, and western Idaho panhandle (along with possibly parts of Brittish Columbia, and if so southern Alaska) would unite to form a Pacific state; call it Cascadia or Columbia or something. An alternative would be one nation comprising the west Cascades and coastal regions while a separate nation claims the Columbia plateau.

Alaska at the time (1920's) was a little populated territory - the Military presence was 90% of the non-russian white populace, and Natives still outnumbered whites overall. There might have been some 30,000 non-natives.

In that timeframe, it is far more likely to be absorbed by Canada if the US breaks up.

[RogerBW]

Originally Posted by MadWombat

While not fully detailed, if you can get your hands on any Crimson Skies source material it might be useful as it is set around your time frame.

For a start, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C..._skies_map.png (though I prefer my own version at http://tekeli.li//crimsonskies/Map_of_former_USA.svg ).