Flavor Thread

[Shiftkitty]

Now that brings up an interesting argument about "elective" surgery. Plastic surgeon Dr. Maxwell Maltz had some training in psychiatry (or was it psychology?). He would do reconstructive surgery, and it's quite obvious how a person who is depressed because his face was disfigured in a car wreck (for example) could possibly shake the depression when he gets his face back. Some people, however, were suffering from depression, anxiety, and a host of other problems because of natural things. A person who is dissatisfied with, say, their nose, may feel low self-esteem which could be genuinely affecting their life in a negative way. A simple nose job and bingo! Their self-esteem goes up, their life gets better because they feel good about themselves. However, some people could get surgery to look like a "million dollar baby" and still feel terrible about themselves. Dr. Maltz realized, of course, that the source of many of these peoples' problems were self-image. He wrote a book called "Psycho-Cybernetics" in 1960 (IIRC) that dealt with the self-image aspect, urging people to try working on their own perceptions about themselves before going under the knife.

So, if a person has plastic surgery to correct some cosmetic flaw that they just can't shake feeling bad about no matter what they try (and despite an angel's best attempts to help), does that count as Medicine or Vanity? (Suppose the surgery really does improve their life.)

[Captain Midnight]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

I am not counting surgery to save someone's life, or help someone gain their health because it's Medicine. Isn't what part of Heaven's portfolio?

Your original comment was "...it's not what God intended for them originally." Saying that you can know God's plan through some very indirect evidence is itself evidence of the sin of Pride. What if it's God's plan for them to undergo a procedure that inspires someone else to make courageous efforts to change his own life? Divine intentions ought to be difficult to ascertain.

It's fine to have angels saying things like "Tummy tucks and facelifts are generally signs of vanity, and therefore ought to be avoided", especially for servitors of Revelations, which is sort of what I think you were getting at. However, the idea that "God laid out how you are supposed to be, and deviating from that is taking Creation in your own hands" is stripping a fair bit of free will out of the human's hands. That's a defensible position for an In Nomine angel, to be sure, but it probably isn't a majority view in Heaven... depending on your "brightness" setting.

[ladyarcana55]

Actually, I was looking at it strictly in terms of what Litheroy may think.

Usually when a person has surgery for a medical need, they tend to be pretty open about it. But when someone elects to receive cosmetic surgery to make themselves look more like the ideal, they tend to be a bit more secretive about it. At least, in my experiences.

[Rocket Man]

Yeah, I don't think the question is "Is this what God intended?" It's more along the lines of "Is this intended to deceive?"

So bleached-blonde hair or silicone breast implants might stand out to a Seraph, for example, while reconstructive surgery to put someone's face together after a car accident might not. (Note the presence of "might"; I know how easily this group can find exceptions!)

For that matter, if someone's doing it to make themselves feel better and is open about it, that probably wouldn't trip a Seraph's alarm. "Yeah, you should have seen the schnozz I had before ... it's so nice to have a nose that doesn't make me feel like Woody Woodpecker."

Now vanity issues ... that's something else altogether. :)

[Captain Midnight]

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Actually, I was looking at it strictly in terms of what Litheroy may think.

Usually when a person has surgery for a medical need, they tend to be pretty open about it. But when someone elects to receive cosmetic surgery to make themselves look more like the ideal, they tend to be a bit more secretive about it. At least, in my experiences.

Hmmm. My experiences differ -- I've known several people who have had various procedures for a variety of reasons (ranging from "now I can breathe freely" to "I like this look better, and it's great that many other people share that view" to "I smoked way too much and my teeth looked awful", or even to "now my gender presentation matches my internal assessment of myself"). These might well be "secrets" in the sense of something that Litheroy might want to reveal, but the people I've met would consider them to be private business. Depending on how extreme we're talking, they might get *extremely* stuffy about discussing it -- does that count as a "secret"?

If surgery counts as a "secret", then what about conscious efforts to present a particular appearance? This can run from haircuts and hair dye to extensive workouts -- do a web search for some old picture of Carrot Top before he started lifting weights, for an extreme example. Motive starts playing a big role in this; what if a woman just thinks she looks better with red hair instead of medium brown? What if a man decides that the beard wasn't a good look for him after all? What if someone consciously decides to wear more stylish (or even revealing) clothes, in hopes that "the right one" will be more likely to notice them? Is *that* a secret, or even a *lie*?

There's a difference between the "secrets" that Servitors of Revelations will address, and the untruths that Seraphim will ferret out. For extra complication, look at how the Mercurian resonance for relationships and their importance to the person plays into all this.

Humans have to have some level of free will, and they will frequently manifest that free will in their appearance. Some of those ways are more long-lasting than others -- is a padded bra more of a deception than breast implants? If you don't like your nose and want to have a new one, should it matter if it has been broken, if you're concerned about being deceptive?

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Yeah, I don't think the question is "Is this what God intended?" It's more along the lines of "Is this intended to deceive?"

So bleached-blonde hair or silicone breast implants might stand out to a Seraph, for example, while reconstructive surgery to put someone's face together after a car accident might not. (Note the presence of "might"; I know how easily this group can find exceptions!)

For that matter, if someone's doing it to make themselves feel better and is open about it, that probably wouldn't trip a Seraph's alarm. "Yeah, you should have seen the schnozz I had before ... it's so nice to have a nose that doesn't make me feel like Woody Woodpecker."

Now vanity issues ... that's something else altogether. :)

Reminds me of Dolly Parton on the Colbert show, talking about all the work she's had done. She doesn't look anywhere near her age, nor does she look natural really, and she's not shy about that. "You'd be surprised how much it costs to look this cheap."

I can see the o.O 's of all the other angels as the seraph nods approval.

[Matthias Wasser]

In the Apocalypse of Paul and/or Mary,* there's a special section of Hell reserved for women who have their hair braided all sexy-like. So opinions on this sort of thing do seem to differ.

*Otherwise identical, save the identity of the narrators and that in the latter Mary persuades God to give everyone in Hell a day off each Sabbath.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

She did lie for decades about her breast implants. I doubt seraphs would be happy about that.

I could see the Serephs viewing it as the triumph of truth over lies.

[Rocket Man]

One of Nybbas's minor, but tenacious Servitors is the Demon of the Wilhelm Scream. What started as a cool in-joke to celebrate the Media devotees from the hoi polloi has now become one more lazy way for mortals to fall back on stock effects instead of investing their own creativity -- and "Willy" still gets himself another Essence every time a director inserts it into a new film. (2 Essence if it's the first time that director has used it, since it becomes addictive for some Media players ... right, Mr. Jackson and Mr. Lucas?)

[tHEhERETIC]

So, be my muse for me a little while. How would you describe your average Soldier of Judgment?